weapon for concealed carry
 

Since I'm legally able to obtain a ccw permit now, along with a handgun to actually carry, I'm thinking I'll do that.

Now comes the issues, I dont have a large sum to spend on the permit, and a pistol. I've found Hi Point makes a full size .45 that I particularly like and actually can afford. Granted they've had a few issues, the overall reviews I've read have been positive considering its a sub $300 pistol.

I've considered used, but this is a brand new, lifetime no questions asked warranty equipped piece, and I really dont want to take a chance on buying someone else's old beat up and worn out gun that wont work when I REALLY need it. I figure if its new and has a warranty, I can at least be covered on that front.

Anyone have any thoughts on the Hi Point JHP .45? I'm going to buy sometime this month probably, but i'd like some feedback first.

Tauras 357 or 38 (Though 357 will fire 38s) stub nose revolver. 5shot and easily concealed. You can get them new for roughly $300 and used for the low to mid 200s in great shape. Even with a 357 round they are pretty damn accurate and maintain tight groupings, even at long distances. Revolvers are always dependable.

This was discussed a while back.
http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=5249

I believe the general consensus is that you get what you pay for.
If you want a cheap pistol that will probably fire reliably when you need it to, they will likely do the job.

ahh, thanks very much. I hadnt looked for that, but I really appreciate it.

I fully intend to get this pistol and if I dont like it as a carry weapon, hell it'll be home defense in a place next to my bed.

Hah! I remember when Taurus was "persona non grata" with the gun crowd. Oh about 10 years or so ago I was going to buy a 357 from them and EVERYONE I talked said they're junk,etc. It's just funny how these things turn around.

I remember 10 years ago out west when everyone thought Taurus was a great compromise if you didn't want to shell out the cash for a Beretta.

I want to get a concealed permit. And a gun for that matter.

Concealing a full size .45 isn't going to be easy or comfortable. You may want to look into compacts or subcompacts. I carry a 9mm Springfield XD and couldn't be happier.

Does that come in a full size version or is that compact only? I also here about the XD-M. What does the M designated model get you?

The XD's come in different sizes. I have the subcompact.

amt .45 backup or or smith compact .45 or 9mm
________
Porn

Any opinions on the H&K P2000SK in .40?

I don't know anything about the P2000SK but the USP's are IMO the best on the market.

You will never go wrong with an HK, they are awesome. I have a USP full-size and I'm thinking longingly about the 45C.

I have a 5-shot Taurus .357 snub. It has not been without issues, but after a little smithing it's a decent peice. It's also old, and their QC has improved since then.

Don't buy a Hi-Point. My buddy bought one that completely locked up on him. Sure they replaced it, but he was without gun for a while. They go bad because of all the pins, which are pot metal and prone to failure. Plus, the 45 is fucking huge. It's big for concealment and shit for accuracy, plus the recoil throws it off even more. If you're looking for a home defense 45 on the cheap that you can carry, get a Charles Daly 1911. You can find them used for a couple hundred bucks.

As for buying a used gun, I've got a few. A reputable firearms dealer with a gunsmith on staff will inspect all firearms before sale, that's the way they do it where I shop and I've never had a problem out of any of the used guns I have. If I did have a problem I'd take it back. It's no different than getting a used jacket.

I'd buy a military surpls Romanian/Yugoslavian/Russian/commies Makarov before I'd buy a Hi-Point or a Taurus.

Just make sure whatever you choose is small and easy to carry/remove without much effort. Practicality for your needs is more important than a big crazy gun that looks cool.

Picture related as it's the gun I recommend.

http://to.all.the.people.in.the.fron...t73784-149.jpg
http://twowheelfix.com/%5Bimg%5Dhttp....jpg%5B/img%5D

Bah, don't listen to the snobs.
Taurus has always done me right for the money.
Are they superior to the high dollar Euro or American marks? Probably not, but for average range, carry, or hunting use, I doubt most people would see an appreciable difference.

Amen! What I REALLY find funny is that some of the same guys who push the expensive guns wear cheapo <$200 helmets!!!

JMHO:

Nothing wrong with good used guns. If it's a carry gun, it means you intend to bet your life on it functioning first time every time so test it with a lot of rounds before you buy it. If you don't know guns, spend a few bucks and have a good gunsmith check it out.

Taurus...any of them built in the last 10 or so years are stone reliable...but all the units I've shot have stock high effort and very crunchy triggers, but can be cleaned up with a little smithing.

S&W... very good quality but high effort DA triggers but good smiths with SW experience abound.

Colt... wheelguns are expensive but the closest to custom ready...autos are expensive but need a little work. Small and medium framed Colt wheelguns are a bit fragile when stoked with a regular diet of +p's, but they do need the least amount of tuning when you find a good used one with low round counts. They ALL shoot sweet.

Ruger... some of the best guns built for the money. Period.

Glock... stone reliable, shoot well, good used units can be had in the $400 range.

HK... some of the finest handguns built if money is no object.

Walther... usually very good. Pricey.

Star... Spanish builder that put out some pretty rough stuff in the 70's and early 80's, but really improved quality in the last 20 years. They are no longer imported into the states, but good used examples can be had for $2-300. I have a PD and a Firestar M40 and they have literally 1000's of rounds through them without a single jam or misfire. The M40 is steel and heavy, but shoots very well and the PD in 45 ACP was my comp gun for years and now serves as my carry gun that I switch off with a venerable 44 sp. Charter Arms pitbull.

There are bunches of 1911 clone builders out there and most are pretty pricey.

Sig...wonderful guns but pricey.

Para Ordnance...expensive and uneven quality.

Kel-Tec...lightweight, tiny.....and crap. Had three; bought one and had it replaced by the factory twice more....none of them shot reliably and I tried every 9mm ammo out there. I was tired of heavier guns and REALLY wanted the Kel-tec to work cause of the light weight, but I wouldn't bet my life on one.

Beretta...never shot one (fancy that) but the US Armed Forces and a slew of law enforcement departments can't be wrong, right?

Those AMTs are pretty slick, but damn hard to find. This is my buddy's dad's 45 pistol that he's had I think since the 70s.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/...3463c43b4d.jpg

As Tigger mentioned earlier these gun manufacturs turn around a lot. Glock use to be top notch but now I'd only use a Glock to wipe my ass (Unloaded of course). 5 years from now H&K may be junk and Glock king again or Ruger might kick it up to Kimber status. Maybe S&W can save themselves. Which get the S&W incase you need to shoot around the broad side of a barn.

If I wanted a composite/plastic style semi-auto pistol, I'd fork over the cash for an H&K.

If cash wasn't a concern I'd get the Taurus Titanium 38.

My opinions of course. Use your best judgement.

Makarov = Walther design + spid hitting round and price tag of sub $200

I have the HK USP Compact .40. I really like it. Unless your hands are small the P2000 is too small. My meat hooks hung off it.

If you are looking at HK, make sure to check out the P30. It is possibly the best, most comfortable pistol I have ever handled. It is superb!

Here's a good review:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=313733

Yes, yes they can be.
Remember the army motto. Quality only matters if it's made by the lowest bidder.
Army's 9mil sucks. Heavy, big, not accurate, and not the easiest to field strip :panic:

and as I hear it, most GIs are trading in those beretta M9's for 1911's anywhere they can get hands on a 1911. why? ohhhh I dont know, maybe its because the 1911 has been the standard issue and damned reliable since ww2 perhaps?

Given the choice, a 1911 variant would CERTAINLY be my choice, but thats well out of my budget. I'm wanting an entry level pistol to start off and later when I'm bringing in money I'll buy a fancier pistol to replace my hi point as the carry weapon, or alternate them.

Buddy of mine was in the Navy when they got issued the Beretta. From what he told me, it was a competition between Beretta and Ruger. But we were wanting to patch some political shit with Italy so we got the Beretta despite the Ruger tested better and I believe was slightly cheaper.

Most cops I know with Beretta hate it and woudl rather have a S&W.

Actually the 1911 was replaced by the Beretta 92 FS in 1985, so for the last 20 years it has been the standard. Doesn't change the fact that it's shit.
Listen, buying a cheaper pistol is fine, but don't buy a Hi-Point. They are unrelaible junk. Seriously, they aren't entry level pistols, they're advanced clubs. Get a Taurus, get a Charles Daly, or look at the used market. Sites like Gunbroker.com, gunsamerica.com, and auctionarms.com will help you with price indexing, and you might just find a deal on there.

Yeah... what he said.
:dthumb:

All of those who tout GI issued M1911A1 obviously have neither handled nor shot them. Listen, they ain't like your Kimber Custom Carry or your Les Baer Elite Tactical. They were and are a bunch of rattling pieces of shits.

I carry and fire a Charles Daly 1911. I'm not recommending a Colt, but mine is decent and runs under $500, I think I paid $400 even for my first one.

They were Colts weren't they? I've fired (And drank) Colt 45s before. Nothing spectacular but always felt it was better than a Beretta.

My understanding of the GI issue .45's was they were just the same ANCIENT ww2 pieces, refurbished like a million times or so and reissued over and over. Unless I'm wrong, they were Springfield Arsenal or armory manufactured too, colt just copied the design.

I may be wrong though, so feel free to correct me if I am. I still like the look of a 1911. not that that really makes any difference when you're using it to lay some scumball out for trying to invade your home.

I am a big fan of Taurus and love my PT24/7 9mm. Very accurate, reliable and you can't beat the price. It is however a little big for me to conceal so I opted for the Kahr CW9. Just ordered one the other day. Can't wait to pick it up!!

As to carry guns...the NUMBER 1 consideration should be that if you should have to ever pull the trigger that it goes BANG!. The rest are just personal preferences. I know nothing of the Hi-Point, they look cheap but if they do the job, who cares?....but before I would carry one, I'd need to put a couple hundred rounds through it ( the real gun aficianados say at least 1000) without a hiccup, feeding jam, stovepipe or misfire or find the ammo that would allow it to operate 100%.

JMHO

Considering that it'll still be awhile before I get the CCW permit, due to funds and the wait time on recieving one after applying, I'll have PLENTY of time to put a few hundred rounds or so through the gun to see how reliable it is, and how I like it before saying it'll be a carry weapon. I'm 85% sure I want it as my carry gun, but 85% isnt good enough to say its absolutely perfect. Like you said, in the instance I NEED it, it MUST go BANG when the trigger is pulled every time.

I'm testing for my permit next weekend.

We have an indoor range at work, so once I get my pistol, there will be lots of practice.

*jealous*!!

I'm tossing around the idea of getting a compact revolver and my CCW...

i'll be getting my CCW this summer.



Why a .45 for CC? What made you think to go with that round?

I usually carry my Taurus snubbie for CC, It works out pretty good. I recommend the .45 because it's proven and works well, but if you really want to conceal something the compact Glocks might be better for you. I hate the fucking things myself, but to each his own.

I know you all are going to accuse me of "trolling" but why do you all feel the need to be armed everywhere you go? I grew up in the hood,I've lived in the hood as an adult,and I even spend some time there now but I've never been in a situation where I've needed a gun. Heck,in fact,it's probably better that I didn't have one in some instances. Honestly,I know we've had this fight over machine guns in the home,now all of you want to roam the streets packing heat and I have to ask,what are you all so afraid of? I mean all this talk about,"it better go bang when you NEED it". What do you all expect to happen ? Seriously,no offense,but I know that some of you live in the suburbs and others live in the sticks,how many muggings do you encounter in your daily lives? Now don't get me wrong,I know and agree that you have a right to bear arms. I'm just wondering why do you think you need to carry a gun on your person at all times?

Tigger, you're familiar with GR. 2 nights ago, 2 people were shot in the parking lot of the downtown YMCA. You never know when you will need to protect yourself. It's better to be prepared instead of a victim. The 2nd amendment is there, might as well take advantage of it before the government takes that right away.

mine will actually stay in my vehicle most of the time.
the ccw is just so i don't have to worry about it.

Three easy answers.

1. the Luby's massacre of 1991
2. the VA Tech massacre of 2007
3. the Colorado church shooting spree of 2007

All of these incidents are cases where -one- armed, firearms proficient citizen could have ended a senseless rampage that killed or wounded unarmed victims.

Oh I fully understand what CAN happen,I've picked people off of my lawn and taken them to emergency when I lived on Paris/Franklin. I don't know what happened in the incident you describe,I but can you be sure that it wouldn't have happened if everyone had guns? What were those people doing there? Were they just minding their own business and someone came out of no where and shot them? Oh and I am familiar with Grand Rapids and I bet there aren't 10 more such instances for the rest of the year in an area of what,about a million? besides,buddy have you started hanging out on the west side,in the hood these days?

This is a doomed position,but remember the Old West? In those days basically everyone carried a gun and they had massive murder rates. I live in a right to carry state right now,and people still get shot here. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have the right to carry,just wondering why. I mean wouldn't it be better to just avoid circumstances that almost always precipitate such occurrences?

I'm of the mind that if everyone carried criminals would mind their P and Q a little more. Most criminals are cowards and would not attack someone knowing they were armed. And no I don't hang in the hood, but I do go to the downtown Y sometimes because their hours are better than the one closer to me. I still live out near Ada.

In the old west, armed individuals (or gangs) who were predisposed to using their weapons to ill ends preyed on either the unarmed, or those not so proficient or numerous as themselves.
There was little or no law enforcement, and no forensics to trace their crimes back to the perpetrators.
Such is not the case now. However, since you cannot expect criminals to voluntarily give up their weapons and the police are still not omnipresent (and, honestly.. would we want them that way?), sometimes the best solution is for responsible, law-abiding citizens to take their defense into their own hands.

Precisely why I want to be prepard. Besides, 16 years as a boy scout taught me its better to be prepared and not need something than to need it and not be prepared.

.45? well thats just the round I prefer, its got the stopping power I want to ensure that whatever gets shot doesnt get up if its placed well.

Let me just throw in one more thing because I sense a rebuttal coming.

Not having a gun doesn't automatically make you a victim.
Neither does having a gun guarantee that you won't be a victim.
Having a gun merely gives you a choice.

I want to carry because I have seen REPEATEDLY that police do NOT respond in enough time to help people. I live in the suburbs of Nashville and was woken up a few weeks ago to screaming outside. Turns out a guy and girl got in a fight and were beating the shit out of each other. Both were drunk. I ended up calling the cops saying "this could get ugly". It took them 25 mins to show up. What could have happened in 25mins? People think the cops are like the calvelry that is going to save you. They mostly seem to be a clean up crew to me. I don't want to have to rely on them for my safety.

And I have been mugged, I had my arm grabbed on my motorcycle by a guy at night. He took off when a truck pulled up just in time. I have had a lead pipe pulled on our riding group cause some rednecks in the hilled didn't want us on "their roads" and I have had a meth head threaten to kill/myself and riding buddies cause we "looked at him funny" Shit happens and I don't want to EVER feel helpless.

Well, so do I. I carry a gun for the same reason I carry a battery jump box in my vehicle and an emergency amount of cash, just in case I need it. I hope I never do, but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. My circumstance is a little different than yours and my possibility of needing one is a little higher. If someone shows up looking for me I'd rather be armed with something a little more persuasive than strong language.
Sure is. You tell me what all of those circumstances are and I'll avoid them. Give me a schedule at the beginning of each month where the crazies and criminals will be for the next 30 days and I'll steer clear. Also, make sure to include what specific days I'm at risk for a car jacking or home invasion and I'll be sure to leave town. Once I start getting that calendar from you I'll stop carrying. I won't hold my breath though.

Just got a call from the Sheriff's Dept. stating that my "Renewed" Conceal Carry Permit was in and could be picked up at anytime.

My current permit expires 3/9/09 so I was cutting it kind of close.

My conceal carry most of the time is a Glock 27 with a plus one mag.

Ok I'm not gonna take the time to look up these incidents but on the whole,quite frankly,who says that an armed citizen could have stopped it? Was everyone killed,who's to say that an armed "hero" in the group might not have gotten more people killed? Haven't there ever been situations when a "hero" got a bunch of people killed that might have otherwise survived?

Look man, when the nutjob runs into the liquor store waving a gun, you go ahead and lay on the floor like you're told. When he starts firing shots you can piss yourself or pray to your impotent gods. But while you're crying, look for the guy keeping himself alive, I'm easy to spot.

Where I am, if you go down into gulfport, and those of you who live in the tampa/st pete area know what I'm talking about, there have been robberies lately where people are shot for NO good reason. In such instances carrying gives you the option to shoot them for a damn good reason should you feel so compelled to save the judicial system some money.

I dont give a damn if you dont like or want to carry, but I'm DAMN sure gonna carry if it helps swing the odds in my favor in a robbery or mugging scenario. anything that keeps me alive and protects others, I'm sure as hell not gonna turn down.

holy shit this topic got long fast. guns are like religion, some believe in em some dont.

Bingo !!

Ok well,the debate is a "carry" permit and not the right to have guns in your home,so you could have grabbed a rifle or other gun and shot that guy(or woman) if you really wanted to. Although I'm not sure that's the example you really wanted to use. Besides,what threat did that pose to YOU that you required a concealed carry permit? Also,in the everybody should have CCW permits world,both of those people would have had handguns on their person,oh yea that's a GREAT idea...

Okay,Rider may have heard about this,but a while ago a crazy bitch knocked one of the guys in our group off his bike with a pitch fork for the same reason. How would a gun have stopped that? As far as the "mugging" goes,I can understand how a gun may have helped you there but are you really willing to kill someone over the contents of your wallet,all bravado aside,really?

I'm sorry but the "meth-head" situation sounds like there were two of you and one of him (the way you describe it,anyway) maybe you and your friends need to go learn how to fight rather than buy your balls from Smith & Wesson... I mean to me that situation would only have been made worse ending with a dead "meth-head" and you going to jail for manslaughter.

Well Clearly not having one didn't help at all!
But if you want to check if these incidents happen in societies where citizens are armed ... Why don't you find a parallel incident in Swiss Society, a place where EVERYONE of military age has a Fully Automatic Rifle or a Handgun.

The Swiss Prove that an armed Society is a Polite Society

One more ethical question for all the anti gunners if you are not willing to accept the responsibility of using deadly force to protect your self your loved ones and your property HOW DARE YOU ASK SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT FOR YOU!

You know better than that by now buddy...but really,exactly how many times have you been in a liquor store while it's being robbed? Again,where do you people live? You all act like you live in the Bronx or South Central,or somewhere. Besides,what if you miss? What if you only wound him and he goes berserk and kills everyone in the store? The store owner has a gun (trust me,I've worked in hoodrat party stores) did that help him?

Anyway,I look forward to meeting you at the rally. Heck bring a piece and we'll go do some target practice together if you'd like. I don't have anything against guns and I'm not against the second amendment,but I don't honestly think that EVERY pencil neck geek that wants to feel "tough" should be able to carry a pistol everywhere they go. It's just an opinion and no amount of name calling or insults is gonna change my mind. I don't want to live in a world where John from accounting tries to stop a bank robbery with a 38 snub nose...

Personally, I carry a H&K 45C, great gun to conceal but a bit pricey at about $1100. I also have a S&W M&P .45 thats a full size 10(+1) round clip that, belive it or not, actually conceals really well in an Uncle Mike's inside-the-waistband holster. A lot of people really swear by the 9MM's but for my peace of mind, I'll stick with the .45, and you only lose 2 (or 5) rounds depending on the model. But if you need more than 8 rounds (compact) or 10 rounds (full-size) then you are probably in a situation where a few extra rounds wont mean a lot. The 9MM is kinda like the 5.56 for assault rifles... I've seen instances of people being hit with 9MM and not even intially knowing they have been hit, a .45 tends to leave a lasting impression and even if they had body armor (why you are in a situation that pits you against an armored assailant, who knows) and gives you a chance to put some distance between you.

The few problems with inexpensive guns, regardless of the caliber, are tendencies to jam, most only have fixed sights and aren't sighted in that well (some exceptions of course). Whatever you buy, be sure to take it to the range and fire 50-100 rounds of the ammo you will have it loaded with to make sure it doesnt hang-fire. Some of the cheap ammo people use for range work has a tendency to be less than reliable after a couple rounds due to carbon build-up in the barrel and will cause jams. Taking it to the range also allows you see where the gun fires (esp with fixed sights). Normally this wont be a problem close-up, but a little off center could be the difference in you walking away and being carried on a stretcher or in a bodybag at range differences of as little as 15 feet.

It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and how much you are willing to dish out for said comfort.

One suggestion is to find a range that has loaner guns and see what feels good to you because you could spend $1000 on a really nice gun that you cant shoot properly because of a bad fit.

One of the better cheaper pistol lines is the Glock. Durable, near indestructable even, and starting at only about $400... the S&W M&P series starts about $350 for the 9MM, but the berrettas start about $600 if you are not military or law enforcement...

Well,everyone knows this but I pulled my duty in the military...some would say that anyone who hasn't served doesn't deserve ANY rights in this country. That sounds about like what you are saying. I should go around armed and be willing to shoot anyone who gets in my face or threatens me in any way. If you break into my car and try to steal my stereo I should shoot you dead. If a "meth-head" tries to start a fight with me I should blow his brains out. Um yep,right. I personally don't want a bunch of armed vigilantes running around "protecting" me if that's alright with you. Besides AGAIN I have never been against people having guns,all I've ever questioned is the NEED (not right,NEED) to have a CONCEALED gun on your person at all times. Hell in many states you can walk around Wyatt Earp style if you want,what's wrong with that? Really,if you are trying to "deter" crime why not advertise you have a gun?

Owning and carrying a gun doesnt mean you have to use it. It just allows for the option of doing something other than being a victim at the hands of someone else. It allows for the possibilty of taking control of an otherwise uncontrollable situation and having a favorable outcome. Is whats in my wallet worth taking someones life? No, its not... But when it comes to my loved ones saftey, you bet it is...

Just cause you have a CCW doesn't mean you are going to carry 24/7.
There are still places that you CAN'T carry, as well as times when you may not feel the need.

It's not about needing to, it's about being ABLE to. IMO

I agree totally, better to have and not need, than need and not have... its an old saying but still rings true...

My point was that it took 25 mins for the cops to get there. I was in no danger but someone was so I called the police and they took forever. There could have been cold bodies on the ground in that amount of time.

You don't know where I've been, you don't know what I've seen, you don't know what I've been through, and you don't know me.Just because I live somewhere nice doesn't mean it's nice all the time. After all, Paris is a beautiful city until someone invades it. And I have reasons for carrying in even the nicest town. Well, I practice to try and avoid missing, but if I do I have 12 more to throw at him, plus the four reloads of 12 rnds each. So I'm not worried about the guy getting pissed off because I shot him. I may not be the best marksman, but I have a fuckload of chances to improve. Sounds like fun. I look forward to meeting you there, too, and if you clean it, you can shoot it.I don't know, you sound kind of scared to me. Like why do you have a problem with people carrying concealed? If you don't see it then why are you against it? And by the way, I don't need a gun to help me feel tough. I like a gun because I might be confronted by someone with their own gun, or someone much larger than me, or more than one someone. I've been in a lot of tight spots, and I've gotten out of most of them without needing my gun. But if I had needed it it was there.I'd like to live in a world where John from accounting gets to go home every night to his kids without any danger of anything ever happening to him. Sadly, that's not the world we live in, so I'll settle for a world where John from accounting can defend himself and make sure that when someone tries to stop him from going home to his kids, he can fight back. John from accounting might never need to change a flat in his life, but I still recommend he carry a jack, a tire iron and a spare.

EDIT to add:There's a thread on this forum right now about the court case resulting from a guy on a greyhound bus getting stabbed, beheaded and partially eaten by someone. I bet that guy would testify to the greatness of concealed carry. How can you even ask this question in a world like the one we live in?

Okay,so what did you do? I mean this is the heart of my argument. What did you do to stop the situation? Did you go out there and try to break it up? I'd imagine that you do have weapons in your house of some kind,why didn't you go out there and stop that guy from beating her up? I would have. What would have been different had you had a CCW? You all realize that a CCW isn't a "go out and play amateur policeman" license,right?Besides,you called in a domestic disturbance,I doubt that you have any idea how many of those kind of calls the cops gets a day. How many that they respond to and it's already over or the couple act as if nothing is going on,or that they see the same people every week. FYI next time say that you "think" he has a gun and see how fast they show up! The cops do have to prioritize the calls they get and respond in kind. Anyway,I see your point,the cops are slow-gotcha,but I'm all for people having guns,how is your having a CCW gonna fix anything besides making you feel safer? Or is that really what this is all about,a security blanket,and not really about saving lives and stopping liquor store heists?

See but I agree that you have a RIGHT to,I just don't see why you need to. Shit,if there are places that I might contemplate going but feel that I NEED to bring a gun to go there...well,I guess I won't be going to those places.

Listen Cutty,I have nothing but respect for you,Amorok,Dave and the other guys here who have served but I disagree that every American sans a felony record should carry a gun. I doubt that 1 out of 20 "muggings" end in someone getting hurt. Now if every mugging resulted in a gun battle....:idk:

First because you chose to serve Thank You.
Next as I pointed out The Swiss prove that the possibility that a firearm is present is one the best deterrents for preventing crime. A fact that has long been backed up by simple crime statistics here in this country. The states that have will issue CCW have lower violent crime rates than those that do not. (Per the FBI) This does come with one less pretty reality as well though places where there is access have also show that of those who attempt suicide those with those places where there is access to firearms have a higher rate of completion.
As a responsible citizen that carries on a near daily basis I do how ever find your description of armed vigilantes’ a good illustration of the kind of senseless propaganda that has been perpetuated by the various anti gun groups. People who choose to carry are presented by then as mindless vigilantes. It is rather like the monkey cartoon, it is an easy mindless presentation that has no basis in fact but plays instead to cultural stereotypes that feed the hysteria of one political group. Another misrepresented fact is that if you won a handgun you are more likely to shoot someone you know than a stranger. The rest of that reality is (again according to the FBI) the person most likely to commit a crime against you that warrants the use of deadly force is someone you know. In short , accidental shooting while they happen and are tragic are rare and the largest majority of those included in that statistic "Needed Shooting"
The reality is those of us who do choose to accept the responsibility of carrying a weapon , openly or concealed do so understanding what the consequences are of using deadly force. Among them for those who have not considered them that first without proper training the weapon may be used on you. Once you use deadly force you open yourself to both criminal and civil litigation that will be years if not decades in resolving.
In truth I take no issue with someone who chooses not to carry or use deadly force. I take tremendous issue with being portrayed as macho , or gun crazy or a vigilante. I carry fully understanding that it is a tremendous responsibility and that because I carry my family is probably a little safer, as is the rest of my community because here in NH anyone considering committing a crime does so knowing that about 1 in every 25 or so of us have a CCW. Just over the line in VT where all you need to carry concealed is a clean record and a pocket has even less crime. As far as the question of whether my radio is worth someone’s life my view on that is they decided what their life was worth when they decided to violate my property.
If you don't want exercise option to carry and or the accompanying the responsibility I respect that. Please don't limit my options for your illusion of greater security or to support some political agenda.
As it happens I provide mental health services to the Massachusetts Department of corrections. A state that has some of the most draconian and irrational gun laws in the country. Every day when I go behind the walls I am reminded of how big a failure these laws are.
Having said all of that I will now piss off all the pro gunners by saying I am not now nor have I ever been a meber of the NRA. Recent political events have me considering joining.

TIGGER, when did you get so damn logical?

Ummm....I'm not judging you,or where you've been and I know that we don't live in a paradise by any means. You can call me a coward or accuse me of being "scared" if you like,it doesn't really phase me. I am the keeper of my soul. I merely posed the question so to honestly get an idea of the various reasons people carry. Now I know.

1. to stop liquor store robberies
2. to keep "meth-heads" from picking on you
3. because you can/have a right to
4. because it is everyone's "duty" to be armed and protect their property/loved ones
5. because the cops are "slow"
6. to keep from being beheaded on a bus
7. to keep from being mugged in the subburbs
8. so you can go to the Y in the hood in the middle of the night
9. because the world is an awful,terrible place,full of danger and menace
10. so you can confront unarmed people bigger than you are on an "equal" footing

I'll make you all a deal,to keep from being called a coward and slandered,I am going to here to fore avoid the gun topics all together. You all talk about your rights and freedoms but apparently,I don't have the right or the freedom of speech to merely ask a question.:sorry:

Um thanks,I guess...what am I normally fucking illogical? huh huh huh? I honestly was interested in what they had to say. Especially Amorok as we've gotten in similar debates about auto matic weapons. I know he thinks I'm a coward because I don't want to kill people anymore,I guess he has a right to his opinion,but I just don't see the point.:idk:

Hey,for the record,I only use the "armed vigilantes" argument when someone tells me they carry a gun to "prevent crime" as in the liquor store argument. Listen,I don't doubt that criminals think twice about attacking someone when the possibility of them having a gun is increased. I never said it didn't,I merely,and rather meekly imho,asked "WHY" you all felt the need to carry a gun everywhere you go? As always when asking these types of questions,I have to be labeled unpatriotic,a coward,not fulfilling my duty to society,etc.

I meant back in the day when the board just started and you just argued to argue. This is actually an incredibly interesting thread.

Oh well then thanks!:dthumb: Oh and hey don't let those guys get you down. They only pick on you 'cause they're jealous!

Fuck 'em.

:bigrofl:

I personally believe anyone sans convicted fellons should be allowed to carry a gun... given they've gone through gun saftey training.

I personally I don't carry... never felt the need... :idk:

And here is my fucking problem in a nut shell!!! You just said EXACTLY what I believe but you put it so much better than I have...damn! I agree that everyone has a right to carry,with above provisos,I just don't understand why everyone NEEDS to.

Well, you really should take the time to look it up.
You seem to be of the rather idealistic opinion that if you keep to your own business and look the other way and just lie down for armed assailants that they'll just take what they want and go away.

Do these sorts of things happen all the time? No.
Have they ever happened to me? No.
But it can happen, it does happen, and if and when it happens to me or someone I care about, I want them to have the ability to choose whether or not they are a helpless victim or if they can at least try to do something about it.

In a perfect world, or if we're simply lucky enough, none of us will ever see a situation where having a gun means the difference between whether we live or die. But we all know this isn't a perfect world and as I have not yet won the lottery, I don't think I can count on my luck forever.

And it's a little silly to play that "Oh, I guess I don't have the right to disagree" card around here.
Of course you have the right to disagree.
However, your disagreement is based upon an idealized view of human interaction where all conflict can be resolved by avoidance and deescalation.
There's nothing wrong with that and if everyone tried to go that route first, we'd have a lot less violence in general. Unfortunately, in some situations, you are faced with an individual who has neither the ability nor inclination to see reason. It is in those hopefully rare and isolated instances that those who choose to carry hope to prevail where others would just end up another sad statistic.

Yes, and yes.
That is what I mean by "responsible" citizens, not just any fool who takes a notion to stick a gun in his pants on the way out the door.

I don't either... but doesn't mean they shouldn't... I'd much rather have people out there who carry with no need... than a completely unarmed country... save the criminals

My disagreement is predicated on a lifetime spent in some pretty rough areas and not needing to carry a gun. BTW my statement about not being allowed to disagree stems from the neo-attacks I keep getting like that I "lie down for assailants" or that I have an "idealistic" (read stupid) viewpoint/opinion of the world. I've seen everything you all are talking about. I've seen people shot,stabbed,beaten,robbed,raped,killed. I've had to fight and I've had to shoot a couple people (as a civilian). I've also been stabbed,shot,attacked,etc. I'm not idealistic,nor am I stupid. I agree with Amorok that I don't know you all and I'm sure that some of you have been in dangerous situations,not of your doing,that carrying a hand gun saved/could have saved you. I understand that,I truly do. I am merely saying that if you live in suburb in Idaho,I don't see why you need to have a 45 tucked in your jacket at all times given that you already have a gun in your car and in you house,that's all.

Personally, I dont percieve my desire to carry as a NEED, but its more of something I WOULD LIKE to do.

You guys REALLY get into it when you debate dont ya? at least its interesting conversation and I'm actually enjoying seeing where you stand.

:lol: any debate that Tigger joins in you'll know will be a long one :lol:

I'll give you a nod on all that. I'm sure you've been through some shit.
I am calling you neither stupid nor a coward.
What I'm asking you to acknowledge is that you don't always get to choose where and when senseless violence comes your way.
When something happens to you away from home, you don't have the chance to run home and get your gun.
Location in the US really has nothing to do with the likelihood of some sort of violent atrocity happening. The illusion of safety in the suburbs or small towns is why things are so much worse when the unthinkable does happen.
That's why those who want to be prepared should be allowed to do so.

I don't own guns to save others. They are to protect myself. And no as a female I'm not going to go charge outside at 4am to throw myself into a fight. That is why I called the police. My ONLY point was that if you do have someone threaten your life, don't expect any one to save you except your self. That is why I would choose to carry.

Its not a cops job to protect you. Their job is to file the report so the courts can punish the bad guy after the fact. I work in large factorys they are horrible hoods I'm getting a CCW because I can. Laws don't stop criminals if they did we would not need to worry about them.

Meet me at the Detroit American axle plant. About dusk after I have worked 12 hours in the plant and we will see if you ask if I have my weapon on me. I bet you will. For the record they had one month were they averaged 4 cars a day stolen out of the parking lot. I don't get a choice where my work sends me when I'm on call. I do have a choice if I'm armed.

People NEED to carry concealed for the same reason you NEED to ride a motorcycle.
It a personal choice that makes people feel better/safer/more individual/etc.

In all honesty, me having my CCW will be more helpful in me having a pistol when I get a chance to do some target practice than anything else, but I don't care. Hell, I live in ND... I know all 15 people that live in the state, and 10 of 'em are related :lol:

I honestly doubt that I would ever pull a weapon on someone (in a civilian atmosphere) too much to deal with between military and civilian law...
Until I get back from deployment at least, then I can claim PTSD :lol:

Um...see you're doing to me what I kinda did to Amorok...I think at least one of my Uncles worked at that plant and my Grandma's house is on Charlevoix(sp) and Hurbert...deep,deep in the hood.As in half of the houses have been burned down and there are always at least two cars on blocks. I'm pretty sure I've also been to that plant and worked on the "Doorboy" guillotine doors there. I've lived just outside of L.A.,in the bad part of Gary,Ind,Off of Dyer st in El Paso,Tx, on the West Side ,the S.E. side and right off Division st in Grand Rapids,Mi.,heck I've even lived in D.C. just off of 12th st. You can't school me in the hood bro,I've spent most off my life in it. Shit,it's probably people that are related to me stealing those cars you're talking about! Seriously.

"PTSD" Good one! Whatever,they'll have your ass sucking cocks and breaking rocks at in Leavenworth with that lame ass defense!

especially since i'm going to Kosovo! :lol:

Good Gravy! Hey send me a pic from Euro-Disney if your "stress levels" don't get too high...yeesh!

Man I wish I could do another 3 or 4! I'd spend the first year trying to kill that bastard "insurgent" that shot me. After I killed at least 50 or so just to feel like I really tried,I'd like to go back to Europe now that the wall is down and see some of the stuff I missed the first time. Heck,maybe even find out what happened to that no account cheating bitch of an ex-wife of mine.

I'll see what I can do.

They were teasing us in the briefings a month ago.

"Kosovo has some of the nicest, best kept ski resorts in the world located in the south west area of the country. Oh, and don't ask, you won't be allowed to go there."

Bastards.

Hahahaha!!!

We were in Kiel (Danish border of Germany)for a firing exercise and they offered us a two day trip to Copenhagen. We're all like fuckin' A! Then they let us know that there'll be a whiz quiz as soon as we get back!:panic: Assholes!

One of my best friends is going to have an 11 hour layover in Amsterdam on his way to Germany for his half-bros funeral. He is pretty excited for it.

for the funeral, or the layover? :scratch:

Aw no you didn't! :whistle: I know I was like I wish one of my relatives in Amsterdam would die so I can go on a sweet trip!!!

Tell him to make sure he doesn't "over do" it or he'll miss his plane. BTW I'm sure he's not an idiot but impress upon him to NOT even think about trying to carry even gram onto the plane! Trust me,that is trouble he don't need!

aw hell, amsterdam is somewhere I REALLY WANT TO GO. why y'all gotta make me think about that now?

has anyone seen my doritos?

The layover. He wasn't too close to his bro at all, but absolutely loves Germany.

He's pretty smart about it. Smokes a fair bit as it is now, but wouldn't consider him a pot-head by any means.

I fucking love doritos.

AW man I just left the store too...Spicy nacho and green onion dip ftw