Both Blinkers blink when i turn on a turn signal
 

Okay so i was riding home last night and my buddy was following me in his car. Well when we got home he said that when i turned my blinker on that both of them turned on. I did some investigating and discovered he was correct. However if i turn lets say the left blinker on then its on and really bright. Now the right one turns on as well but is very very dim. But they are LED's so at night even a dim LED looks pretty bright. I checked the wiring and looked followed it all along its path and it doesnt intersect with anything or touch anywhere none of the wiring is corroded or cut. IM kind of stumped on why its doing this. Anyone have an idea or a solution?

Maybe a problem with shorting across the switch on the bars?:shrug:

This is where the blinkers are located.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6082097_n.jpg

How would i go about locating that problem? dismanteling the whole switch and checking each wire? I really dont want to do that.

I was thinking i check the wiring by the lights for their volts/amps and then find a capacitor or somthing like that or whatever and just splice it in the middle of the wiring. That way it would maybe stop the excess power getting to the other blinker but would still allow the targeted blinker to turn on cause the capacitor wouldnt stop the electricity that would be greater than what the capacitor can handle. Im just shooting in the dark but thats just anidea i had.

Does the reverse happen if you turn the right blinker on?

JC

Yea if i turn either blinker on the other also blinks. Granted its very dim, but like i said it looks pretty bright at night since its an LED.

Ok, it sounds like it might be a bad resistor, (the whatever you were talking about earlier).

Most LED set ups require a resistor to limit the amount of power that gets to the LEDs. Depending on how it's wired, a blown (or dying) resistor could cause your problem. Find the resistor, and test it.

I'd also take apart the switch housing (it's just a couple of screws, don't be a pussy) and check for corrosion, ala Goof.

JC

Okay yea thats kind of what i was thinking i just didnt know the lingo lol. But ill check into all that after classes today. Thanks JC.

P.S. Dont call me a pussy.

It looks like both L & R side flashers run through the same relay. I'm just guessing, but maybe a short in the relay could be causing it as well.

I don't suppose that you could scan the wiring diagram, could you? It sounds rather like the ground is being switched, rather than the positive. You wouldn't get a light unless you have a potential difference between the power and ground connection.

Then again it could be a grounding issue. If it's grounded to the rear subframe try moving the ground to the frame, instead. See if that makes a difference. "Ground" isn't always ground.

That sounds like the winner.

Full throttle did you do that yourself with your rear pegs?

The flasher relay supplies/interrupts power to the switch and the switch completes the circuit to R or L blinkers, so I don't think an issue w/ the relay could be causing the problem you described, since it is located before the circuit branches @ the switch. It sounds to me like there must be a corrosion/rubbing 'bridge' (not a 'short', since that would be to ground) allowing a little current to pass from one side of the circuit to the other - I think that could only be between the switch & lights.

First place I would start is at the switch, as others said - but I'd suspect the wiring more.

Interesting mod on the led placement, kinda cool - clean off your sharpie marks though! :lol:

My concern is how visible it would be to other people behind you...Bc my bike with the undertail...has shitty placements for blinkers and they dont sell nice looking undertails...So if i could do something like this for my blinkers...I saw a brake light setup that i could do that goes under my rear seat.

nobody has mentioned the psychological answer: your turn signals are reflecting your thoughts on life and not knowing which way to turn :lol:

Are you saying Full Throttle is Bi-curious?

JC

Since those aren't stock signals, I would first look at the "new" wiring going to those signals and if you put new signals on the front too. My guess is someone did a crappy job of installing them and the wires aren't isolated properly.

Ill try and get a diagram of the wiring.
Nah not me. came that way

Well i have no idea who put those lights in since the bike is 10years old and has probably 3-4 owners or more. Its very possible that anything suggested above is the answer. I'm going to mess with it more tonight. I haven't had a chance till today. My garage has been in a shambles due to spring cleaning.

The visibility is actually pretty good. Its pointing straight back so anything behind me can see them. The only thing that gets in the way is the muffler on the right side it causes a small blind spot to the blinker. If a car is in my back right pocket they wouldn't see it but i wouldn't be needing to merge that way if they were there lol. Other than that small blind spot for the blinker its fine. Ive never had any problems with them yet. And at night its pretty crazy bright.

I didn't see it mentioned in the thread but do the front indicators do the same thing? If not that really makes me think it is a wiring issue like others have mentioned. Either way, if this works I have hopefully attached enough of the relevant portion of the wiring diagram. I can't go too much bigger or it becomes unreadable. It is for Euro models but I suspect it will be the same.

46 is the relay, 44 is the switch, and 51-54 are the actual indicators. 43 is the clutch switch and irrelevant. It just ended up in my crop.

Ahh - It just dawned on me, I bet what may be causing it is a 'backfeed' through the dash indicator circuit which is producing a small voltage on the opposite-hand signal circuit.
Especially if your dash has a single flasher bulb vs. both right & left.

A bit out of my element with the electrical theory, so I'm speculating here - but:
With normal incandescent bulbs (low resistance, high amperage draw) maybe it wouldn't be enough to make the filaments glow, but LED's draw so little current that it could be enough to light them up?

The LEDs should only light with current in one "direction." If the potential in the frame rises above the level of what it sees through the relay, then there shouldn't be any light given off. At least that's the theory.

I am wondering where the wires heading off to the right go though. As you say, maybe that's the dash indicator. Adding a power diode in that line, before the signals, might be enough to stop it.

Right - since diodes are basically electrical one-way valves & LED's are Light Emitting Diodes.

The branches headed to the right are to the dash indicator(s), I expect - so if there's a back-feed voltage induced in the opposite circuit, it would be in the right 'direction'. iirc, typical gate voltage for led's is about 3.5, so it wouldn't take much.

I am still going with poorly installed or poor quality additional components of what was installed during these mods. If there is a flasher relay, lose the relay and see if it lights up the other side when going super fast blinking. If it doesn't, get some resistors and call it a day.

That's where I think that adding another power diode, in the "correct direction", would do the trick. It should drop the voltage across the indicator LEDs to below threshold. It's either that, or start monkeying around with a Zener circuit to act as a switch.

Another view for you Papa. This one is a bit different since it is the Aussie version. I didn't notice but it is simpler. The Euro version had wires (the ones missing from this diagram) going to an alarm system that must have been standard there. Apparently the service manual I have is for Euro and Aussie bikes, not USA. The labels for the new stuff are below.

25 Combination Meter, whatever that is:shrug:
26 Hi Beam Indicator Light
27 Turn Signal Indicator Light
28 Meter Lights
32 Fuel Sender
49 Oil Level Switch

A quick search shows that "combination meter" means your dash display (speedo, tach). It sure looks like leakage through the diode pairs, in the dash display. They've got some bizarro bridge rectifier deal going on there. There wouldn't be enough current to light up an incandescent lamp, but diodes are a different story. Like I said adding a power diode, or a whopping big power resistor, would likely do the job.

Bingo (I think) - those little triangles with the bar in front are symbols for diodes, and with a circle around it is an LED. So it does have a single indicator light, right? The four diodes arranged at the indicator lamp allow the signal current to pass through the indicator & to the bulbs through one pair or the other depending on which side is switched on - you can trace it by the direction of the arrows. The 'opposite' pair of LED's acts to block the flow of current to the un-switched signal side - but they aren't completely blocking & allowing enough voltage through to dimly light the opp. side.
Increasing the inline resistors @ the signals should take care of it, I think.

Sounds right. The term is "Leakage Current."

Nah, not bizzaro - pretty typical diode application, similar to how the AC current from the stator is 'rectified' to DC current by only allowing the 'positive' voltage through (but with only 2 legs instead of 3).

I say 'bizarro' because, if you follow the path that current would take (well actually opposite to the path, since flow is from negative to positive opposite to the old theory, that all of the component symbols were designed to follow), current feeds from the display straight back into the opposite signal through that bridge. Dumb, if you're designing for an LED system, but they weren't designing for LEDs.

Gotcha - yep, even simple circuitry can become really confusing shit. I remember the electron flow being opposite conventional circuit flow throwing me for a loop back in school - one reason I stuck with nuts & bolts! :lol:

As you pointed out, the circuit was designed for incandescent bulbs which draw more current & thus cause more voltage drop - so the indicator diodes 'see' less voltage normally. I'm thinking that the higher voltage present on the indicator circuit due to lower drop across the LED's is a bit above the 'breakdown voltage' (point at which the diodes quit blocking) - so there's the 'leakage' to the opposite signals.

Trick is, figuring out how much additional resistance is required in the circuit to drop that voltage below the threshhold.

The fronts don't do it only the backs. and they are all LED.

Here is a video of what i'm talking about. Excuse the loud music lol. I forgot it was playing when i was recording.

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t...afilter=videos

It's actually almost the opposite situation, in theory. An incandescent lamp provides low voltage drop, unless it's heated up. It takes a fair bit of current to heat one up enough, that it lights. As it heats up, it has a higher resistance to current flow. That's why incandescent lights usually blow when you first turn them on; low resistance equals high current flow, so they blow like a fuse.

LEDs are a different animal. Once they reach a certain threshold current, they try to force a fixed voltage drop across them. For a basic red electronics LED, that voltage is roughly 1.5 volts. They effectively become a variable resistance in the circuit.

"Breakdown voltage" is more of a thing for Zener diodes, which are designed to let current through once they hit a certain voltage. If you hit breakdown on a regular diode, or a LED, then it's usually followed by "burnt chip smell" ;) Leakage current is generally pretty damned low, though it can obviously be significant in some applications.

I actually went to school for this crap, though I never use it these days :lol:

*EDIT* Actually you're right about the 'breakdown voltage' thing. I forgot that they also use the term when talking about both forward AND reverse current.

Well with all that said i understand very little lol. What i think i was able to grasp was i need to maybe add a diode to the circuit somewhere.

A diode or a low value, high wattage resistor in the path back from the display, will likely do the job for you. Barring that, just toss it inline with the signal diodes.

Okay so i just need to stick a resistor before each signal?

That would be my guess. You're just trying to kill off a little current, that's leaking back through the circuit. That should be all it takes.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/PR-TURN-SIGNAL.../dp/B002KR51SM

Is this something that your suggesting i put before each signal?

Not much detail there, but it looks like what I would suggest.

Ahh - that makes sense, thanks for the illumination... :rofl::backingout:

As to only the rears only doing it - I bet the fronts have a bit higher value inline resistors which are dropping the 'leakage' below their threshhold on that branch. I bet upping the inline resistor to the rear leds (easily accessible, since it's a homemade deal, likely) just a bit will square it away. Shouldn't need to be high-wattage since they draw so little current - the little $2 a pack RadioShack 1/2-watt jobbies should work, I think. Just have to ID the resistance of the existing ones (http://www.csgnetwork.com/resistcolcalc.html - or just disconnect & measure), and bump it up a bit (might take an assortment & a some trial & error). Or you could say 'fuck all this lectrical shit' and just let 'em flash! :lol:

Those 'load resistors' in addition to whatever is in there already might drop voltage TOO much & dim the ones you do want flashing.

Edit: Those are fairly low resistance/high-wattage & intended to be wired in parallel (between the hot & ground), vs. in series (inline, like the resistor(s) already in the LED circuit which I'm suggesting to increase). They're generally used to slow down the fast-flash, but will also maybe be the simplest way to correct your issue without monkeying much with the existing wiring or trying to figure out resistance values.

Yea im not to confident in messing with electrical stuff. I have no problem splicing a resistor in but i dont want to do much more than something that simple.

I did install a 12v under the back seat and a switch under my seat to turn it on and off with. that was rather simple though. just hooked it right up to the battery then the switch then to the outlet and finally grounded it to the frame.

From the way it's behaving, I'm guessing that the LEDs you installed in the rear don't already have an inline resistor. If you have LED signals in the front, were they commercial bulb replacements?

If you didn't put an inline fuse on the line to that power outlet, I would highly recommend doing so. You can pick one up, pretty easily, at any auto parts store. You can get them with a rubber boot, to prevent corrosion.

Also, if you put in those inline resistors, make sure that they don't contact any plastic. They can get pretty hot, depending upon how much current those LEDs are drawing.

So i should get something like this instead?

http://www.twowheelfix.com/attachmen...1&d=1298373336

And yea the Front ones are commercial. The ones you always see in the parts section of the Motorcycle shop.

Something like this
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.jpg

You should get something like the item pictured, in order to add a fuse between the battery and your 12V power outlet, that you stated you had added under the seat with a switch. Make sure that the positive 12V is the side with the fuse. If you've never seen an automotive batter discharge directly to ground then trust me, it isn't something that you want going on directly under your ass, while riding.

Commercial lights are generally already balanced, with resistors etc., to work properly in a pre-existing circuit. If you hacked the LED light strip together yourself, then you are definitely missing the appropriate in-line resistor. Add the ones that you linked and you should be good to go.

I believe LEDs must have a resistor wired in series to operate in a 12V system, because full system voltage (~14V) will simply fry them otherwise. The commercial ones typically have the LEDs & resistors mounted together on a little circuit board. The 'prewired' singles have a little one soldered directly to the led leads & usually covered w/ shrink-tubing. The way those are nestled into the peg bracket, I'm gonna guess that they're not the 'prewired' variety, but instead have a single one somewhere in the wire running to the bracket.

I do think the best way to fix it would be to add a little resistor in series (in-line on each + wire), not those big resistors in parallel (branching from the + wire to ground). They're like sticking little heaters in your wiring harness - gotta worry about what they're near, and it's just an 'ugly' solution, IMO.

I know all this babbling is making it sound more complicated than it really is - hell, if you were closer to Nashville I'd say just bring it on over & I'd help you square it away. :lol:


Edit: Oh - and a BIG plus-one on adding an inline fuse to the power outlet. Attach one lead to the batt, and the outlet to the other, so the circuit is protected closest to the source.

Actually that big-assed resistor is meant to be in series with the LEDs, not parallel.

I must respectfully disagree. If it were in series, it wouldn't need to be nearly the size (power/wattage capacity), since it would only be passing a few milliamps. 'Load' resistors are way lower resistance (3~6 ohm) than a series resistor would need to be, and intended to wire 'across' (in parallel with) the LED to basically simulate the high current-draw of a normal bulb.

This one is 3-ohm, 50 watt:

http://www.v-leds.com/BlinkerWarning...79822-1-3.html


Here's a cool little calculator I found: http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=zz.led...lator#parallel

Plug in 14V, 2V drop across led (lower than I thought), and 20ma for a single LED = 600-ohm, 1/2-watt (with safety-factor) required. For 6 similar LED's in parallel: 100-ohm, 3-watt


Shit - I really need to get back to this mess I'm procrastinating on fixing @ the day-job! :lol:

Hey, what'd you call me??

Oh... CURRENT...

Ask Freud.

The switch and 12v outlet under the seat already has a fuse in line. That whole set up was rather easy. It goes bat-fuse-switch-outlet-ground. the only reason i have the switch there is so i wouldn't have to link everything into the existing electrical system. so i made my own. The switch is there to keep the battery from dying.

I would of liked it if someone on here lived a bit closer so i could just swing by one after noon and fix it up.

Yea If I could step in on the engineers here....:wink::lol:

1. It's a lot easier to wire in a "no load" flasher unit than to screw around with those stupid resistors. Been there, done that.

2. Wire your power outlet to a 12V relay which will only turn it on when the bike is running/the key is on. Use your license plate light positive as your trigger. I do agree on the fuse though.

Yabbbut, although that will fix the fast-flash issue, it has nothing to do with his problem - the other side lighting dimly when one side is flashing. I started to mention installing one of those after seeing the fast-flash on the video, but figured why confuse things further... :lol:

I agree TOTALLY on using a 'no load' relay (also called 'towing' or 'electronic' - common @ every parts stores is the Tridon EL13) vs. wiring in those damn 'load' resistors (high-wattage, in parallel). They're a crude solution to the fast-flashing caused by swapping to low-current LEDs, more expensive, not avail. at any parts-store, etc. - don't like 'em.- only advantage is you generally don't have to remove the upper fairing to install (big deal).

But again - that's unrelated to the problem. What he most likely needs is just a pair of these http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062295 (or of a resistance around there) wired in-line (series) on each rear signal wire.

PS: Many 'engineers' do truly suck at the practical application of, well... anything practical (worked with/for several of them)! :lol: But the good ones sweat the details to the Nth-degree, consider how technical theory actually works in the real world, and seek what works best (and many of that sort don't have a formal degree). They're generally the ones who figured out & designed/refined the bikes, the LEDs, the flashers, the computer you're reading this on, etc, etc..... :wink:

but ai thought that you all had decided that part of his problem was an abunance of power bleeding past his indoard flasher relay....if you bypass that to a no load flasher....:idk:

That's why you need a technologist, in most cases, not an engineer ;)

No, not the relay, that's before the circuit branches to L/R at the switch - the diode array at the indicator lamp.

Just my best semi-educated guess:
I'm thinking that the voltage (think of volts as electrical 'pressure' & the wiring as plumbing) is 'leaking' a bit past 2 of the 4 diodes (one-way 'valves' ) shown in the 2nd diagram fullthrottle posted. They are there to isolate the R & L branches of the circuit from being bridged by the single dash indicator light (one pair allows current to flow thru the indicator when L is switched on while the other pair blocks current to the R, and vice-versa when R is switched on).
But I think the diodes aren't blocking the voltage completely, so when one side flashes at full 13~14V, the other side also energizes to say 3 or 4V - not enough to make the filament of a regular bulb glow, but enough to dimly light the replacement LEDs. I think the reason the fronts aren't doing it is because they have series resistors built into them which are of a high enough resistance to keep the LED's from reaching their 'threshhold voltage' (the point at which they emit light). So I'm thinking he simply needs to add a resistor (or replace existing ones with higher value) to limit the voltage the LED's are 'seeing' & keep them below that threshhold. But I could be completely wrong & just wasting time trying to remember what little bit of electronics I learned years ago - hey, it beats doing a crossword puzzle though! :lol:

:lol: Agreed - that's what I am (MET / machine design puke). I suck too much at higher math to be a true nerd!

And I was a po' boy who couldn't afford an engineering degree, but had no problem with the math :lol:

Oh I see, well I had hoped that the built in resistance of the after market flasher would take care of this, it is separated left and right as you know. I probably missed something but I didn't think that the leds were "new" but the problem was...which led me to the flasher relay... Anyway, like you said, it's an interesting problem top speculate on. BTW I have my leds wired with a no load flasher and it solved all of my problems. Of course, I have front, back, integrated taillight and under tail leds that flash, so it's a different scenario altogether.:lol: