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-   -   2012 Camaro ZL1 550 HP Supercharged (http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=18211)

101lifts2 02-09-2011 04:51 PM
2012 Camaro ZL1 550 HP Supercharged
 
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...rolet/0208_zl1

:yum::yum:

tallywacker 02-09-2011 04:56 PM
Who has money for this shit

Switch 02-09-2011 07:21 PM
http://j-h-p.com/f7u12/images/MMS%20...ww%20yeah.jpeg

Dave 02-09-2011 07:56 PM
still weighs 4000 pounds. still the size of a truck. still ugly. wasnt special looking enough to catch my eye at the auto show past the regular camaro

NEXT

L8 Braker 02-09-2011 08:21 PM
$50K and the best they can do is a plastic grill that costs 47 cents?

Amber Lamps 02-09-2011 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallywacker (Post 448834)
Who has money for this shit
No shit, heck T-Rock isn't even allowed to buy a used Nissan Murano for God's sake!!!:lol:

Seriously though, those power to weight ratios are hardly impressive and when you add in the craptastic gas mileage... Well, there are several cars made in Japan that can crush those numbers at almost half that cost and still deliver decent gas mileage.

Homeslice 02-09-2011 08:59 PM
Never liked V8's all that much........Too much noise making everyone know what you're up to.......And there's always a half-second delay after you blip the throttle before it revs up..... not to mention the throttle springs are usually way too stiff

Put a blown six in it, cut 800 lbs, and give me some windows I can actually see out of, and I might be interested.

derf 02-09-2011 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8 Braker (Post 448889)
$50K and the best they can do is a plastic grill that costs 47 cents?
Hells yeh, I still want my T top and a mullet that gets dropped on my head from behind the seat when I get in the car

dReWpY 02-09-2011 10:29 PM
i still would rather have my car...

fasternyou929 02-09-2011 10:57 PM
No interior shots, but it's GM so I figure it's safe to assume the dash and console components will still be Playskool quality for $50k.

shmike 02-09-2011 10:58 PM
I'll take a CTS-V instead.

Same basic motor, waaay better looking and 4 doors.

jalaan1 02-09-2011 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmike (Post 448923)
I'll take a CTS-V instead.

Same basic motor, waaay better looking and 4 doors.

ditto on that!!!!!

in coupe or wagon.

Adeptus_Minor 02-10-2011 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fasternyou929 (Post 448922)
No interior shots, but it's GM so I figure it's safe to assume the dash and console components will still be Playskool quality for $50k.
That's been my gripe with GM for many years now.
Fit, finish, and materials really don't get distinctly better as the price tag goes up.
(this isn't universally true, mind you, but not far from it)

z06boy 02-10-2011 08:55 AM
I'll just keep my old 2002 car that's long been paid for...similar power and close to 1000 lbs. less.

L8 Braker 02-10-2011 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fasternyou929 (Post 448922)
No interior shots, but it's GM so I figure it's safe to assume the dash and console components will still be Playskool quality for $50k.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...auto-show.html

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2069/000lp.jpg

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6199/58642515.jpg

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/142/68913970.jpg

Homeslice 02-10-2011 09:47 AM
Interior looks OK, but it's sad when a base-model Civic has more side-support in the seats. How are you going to do any high-performance driving when you're swimming in your seat?

And I wonder if that oil pressure gauge actually reacts to changing RPM & temperature like it's supposed to, or does it just stay in a "normal" range all the time to prevent clueless people from getting scared.

z06boy 02-10-2011 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8 Braker (Post 448999)
Not too bad imho. Those gauges are kind of in a weird spot...sucks to have to take your eyes off of the road to look down at them I would think.

That's why I like the headsup display that I have in the Vette which also helps you see your speed instantly when the popo pops up from over the hill or around the corner. :lol

The front of the Camaro looks decent I think...not too crazy about the back of it and yes 4,000 lbs. is a lot.

pauldun170 02-10-2011 10:07 AM
Its nice that they offer it. They finally have an answer for the Mustang GT500.
Unfortunately, the Camaro looks like 'that' but that is one hell of a drivetrain.

z06boy 02-10-2011 10:10 AM
^^^^True...and I didn't even think of that comparison.^^^^

goof2 02-10-2011 11:24 AM
I can certainly understand reservations about the interior but complaints about the price, weight, and fuel economy of this car are ridiculous to me. This car should have similar interior size and performance to the BMW M6 but will cost half as much, have more power, weigh the same (or less), and get similar (or better) fuel economy. The Camaro should also hold up to the similarly priced (and previously mentioned) GT500 Mustang. I believe both the GT500 and the M6 have sold pretty well.

All the complaints about this ZL1 makes me think there are significantly better options available, but I can't come up with any.:shrug:

Homeslice 02-10-2011 12:30 PM
Well, unlike the M6, it isn't a luxury vehicle.......so why does it need to weigh that much?

And btw I think the M6 is overweight as well.

Having a big engine doesn't necessarily require a heavy car to go with it. Even an engine like that probably weighs only, what, 200-400 lbs?

pauldun170 02-10-2011 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goof2 (Post 449025)
I can certainly understand reservations about the interior but complaints about the price, weight, and fuel economy of this car are ridiculous to me. This car should have similar interior size and performance to the BMW M6 but will cost half as much, have more power, weigh the same (or less), and get similar (or better) fuel economy. The Camaro should also hold up to the similarly priced (and previously mentioned) GT500 Mustang. I believe both the GT500 and the M6 have sold pretty well.

All the complaints about this ZL1 makes me think there are significantly better options available, but I can't come up with any.:shrug:
The only real competitor is the GT500. If you can deal with the awkward styling of the Camaro then you end up with the same issue that buyers of Corvettes faced for years.

"I'm spending how much money for THIS interior?"

goof2 02-10-2011 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449036)
Well, unlike the M6, it isn't a luxury vehicle.......so why does it need to weigh that much?

And btw I think the M6 is overweight as well.

Having a big engine doesn't necessarily require a heavy car to go with it. Even an engine like that probably weighs only, what, 200-400 lbs?
I consider both "GT" cars. The areas where the BMW has more weight due to luxury (though an M6 have much more than the Camaro would) are made up for by areas where BMW cut weight through spending like the carbon fiber roof. That's why I considered the two comparable.

For what you are talking about in a 2+2 coupe the Lotus Evora fits. You get the lightness (by around 1000lbs) and the fuel economy, but it costs a hell of a lot more, the interior makes the Camaro look like a Maybach, and you get the engine from a Camry.

The LS9 is over 500 lbs dry from what I have read. The supercharger, intercooler, and additional plumbing leave their mark in that respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldun170 (Post 449037)
The only real competitor is the GT500. If you can deal with the awkward styling of the Camaro then you end up with the same issue that buyers of Corvettes faced for years.

"I'm spending how much money for THIS interior?"
I personally think the Camaro looks good. That is a matter of personal taste though.:shrug: Supposedly the interior is better too, but I've never sat in one so I don't know how accurate that is.

Either way, if someone wants a very high performance 2+2 they can get this Camaro, the GT500 (with similar interior issues), or they are spending a ton more money. Really the only car that fixes all the complaints people have expressed about this Camaro is a 911 Turbo. The complaints I've heard are compromises GM had to make. The 911 shows that while those compromises can be avoided it costs a ton to do so.

pauldun170 02-10-2011 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goof2 (Post 449093)
I consider both "GT" cars. The areas where the BMW has more weight due to luxury (though an M6 have much more than the Camaro would) are made up for by areas where BMW cut weight through spending like the carbon fiber roof. That's why I considered the two comparable.

For what you are talking about in a 2+2 coupe the Lotus Evora fits. You get the lightness (by around 1000lbs) and the fuel economy, but it costs a hell of a lot more, the interior makes the Camaro look like a Maybach, and you get the engine from a Camry.

The LS9 is over 500 lbs dry from what I have read. The supercharger, intercooler, and additional plumbing leave their mark in that respect.



I personally think the Camaro looks good. That is a matter of personal taste though.:shrug: Supposedly the interior is better too, but I've never sat in one so I don't know how accurate that is.

Either way, if someone wants a very high performance 2+2 they can get this Camaro, the GT500 (with similar interior issues), or they are spending a ton more money. Really the only car that fixes all the complaints people have expressed about this Camaro is a 911 Turbo. The complaints I've heard are compromises GM had to make. The 911 shows that while those compromises can be avoided it costs a ton to do so.


Mustang interiors are supposed to pretty nice nowadays.
Camaro has a lot of awkward angles and it definitely a car that polarizes

derf 02-10-2011 06:19 PM
Also gm has had some fairly crappy interiors over the years, and while the pictures of the show model are usually better than thee final product. Anyway gm generally sucks.

RACER X 02-10-2011 06:37 PM
Z wants to get a camaro convert n a few yrs, I have no prob w that. I'd rather get an ol skool hot rod first


http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-.../1d37f2b695485







She's wanted 1 for a few yrs now, it's been about 8-9 yrs sine her '93 z28 was stolen

101lifts2 02-10-2011 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449002)
....And I wonder if that oil pressure gauge actually reacts to changing RPM & temperature like it's supposed to, or does it just stay in a "normal" range all the time to prevent clueless people from getting scared.
It reads the gauge pressure....do you see an L or H there?redflip

101lifts2 02-11-2011 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonesaw (Post 448874)
Red X picture homebrew.

Yeah didn't notice the 50k pricetag, but it is competing with the GT500.

I like the Camaro looks outside alot, though the interior is just OK. Def. has some character unlike ALL japanese shizit. This is a quarter mile car that handles OK...it is no Audi R8 and it's target audience isn't meant to be, though they did up the suspension pretty well as with the driveline.

Adeptus_Minor 02-11-2011 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X (Post 449115)
Z wants to get a camaro convert n a few yrs, I have no prob w that. I'd rather get an ol skool hot rod first
http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-.../1d37f2b695485

Ooooh. Hey Dave, check out the '66 Riv :phat:

http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-.../494876h957430

Dave 02-11-2011 03:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeptus_Minor (Post 449185)
Ooooh. Hey Dave, check out the '66 Riv :phat:

http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-.../494876h957430
good lookin old boat. not the right one though, i always preferred the riv with the boat tail.

that 70' charger is pure sex. needs a 4spd though

Avatard 02-11-2011 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 448895)
Never liked V8's all that much........Too much noise making everyone know what you're up to.......And there's always a half-second delay after you blip the throttle before it revs up.
That doesn't describe my mouse motors.

I use a spread-bore mechanical secondary carb, and careful pump shot tuning to get throttle response that's nearly instantaneous.

Adeptus_Minor 02-11-2011 04:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 449188)
that 70' charger is pure sex. needs a 4spd though
Indeed. Saw that too. :dthumb:

Homeslice 02-11-2011 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101lifts2 (Post 449172)
It reads the gauge pressure....do you see an L or H there?redflip
Plenty of gauges have numbers on them.......But the needle still stays in one position all the time. Or if it moves, it moves slow as molasses. Get a real gauge like a VDO.

z06boy 02-11-2011 09:39 AM
Well my V8 surely doesn't hesitate :lol: and didn't even when it was stock. :idk: The interior could be better for sure but really isn't that bad and besides...I bought it for the looks which I like...the power to weight...the handling...and the stopping power and it was well worth the money in all of those areas back in 2002. With modifications I have improved it and it's still a blast to drive. The sound of the exhaust in itself is intoxicating imho.

The car has never been back to the dealership either. Most GM service departments do suck. I've heard horror story after horror story about dealing with them.

Dave 02-11-2011 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X (Post 449115)
Z wants to get a camaro convert n a few yrs, I have no prob w that. I'd rather get an ol skool hot rod first


http://www.harwellmotors.com/muscle-.../1d37f2b695485







She's wanted 1 for a few yrs now, it's been about 8-9 yrs sine her '93 z28 was stolen
You know at the price of the new cars you could basically build a brand new 60's camaro vert with zero gm parts right? Hot rod did it and it was tight as fuck

pauldun170 02-11-2011 10:00 AM
I think the big issue with the the 50K Camaro is the fact the standard Corvette is available at the same price point and will likely offer comparable if not superior performance.

That being said I hope GM meets or exceeds their sales targets

Homeslice 02-11-2011 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z06boy (Post 449239)
Well my V8 surely doesn't hesitate :lol: and didn't even when it was stock. :idk: .
Hesitate as in takes longer than a 4-cylinder to rev up and then rev back down........Too much reciprocating mass inside a big engine........And they waste energy shaking the car and stretching the motor mounts rather than putting the power down.

None of the V8's I've driven felt like they were as "connected" to the throttle as a good 4-cylinder is.

Yeah I know, how a car performs is more important than how it feels when you blip the gas, but I grew up driving 4's so that's the type of feeling I prefer.

z06boy 02-11-2011 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449267)
Hesitate as in takes longer than a 4-cylinder to rev up and then rev back down........Too much reciprocating mass inside a big engine........And they waste energy shaking the car and stretching the motor mounts rather than putting the power down.

None of the V8's I've driven felt like they were as "connected" to the throttle as a good 4-cylinder is.

Yeah I know, how a car performs is more important than how it feels when you blip the gas, but I grew up driving 4's so that's the type of feeling I prefer.
I've owned 4's with and without turbos...6's and also 8's with and without superchargers and nitrous...I like some of them all...but my current one doesn't hesitate at all...that's all I'm saying. The car is tight.

Dave 02-11-2011 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449267)
Hesitate as in takes longer than a 4-cylinder to rev up and then rev back down........Too much reciprocating mass inside a big engine........And they waste energy shaking the car and stretching the motor mounts rather thain putting the power down.

None of the V8's I've driven felt like they were as "connected" to the throttle as a good 4-cylinder is.

Yeah I know, how a car performs is more important than how it feels when you blip the gas, but I grew up driving 4's so that's the type of feeling I prefer.
If I've learned anything watching keichi tsuchiya videos, its that nothing can beat a well tuned ae86 on a tight winding road

z06boy 02-11-2011 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 449278)
If I've learned anything watching keichi tsuchiya videos, its that nothing can beat a well tuned ae86 on a tight winding road
Well not with him driving for sure. :lol:

Dave 02-11-2011 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z06boy (Post 449338)
Well not with him driving for sure. :lol:
Guy is fucking insane. Gan san is worse

zlicius 02-11-2011 04:40 PM
don't you have to get the Z06 vette to get this

"Magnetic Ride Control suspension"

goof2 02-11-2011 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlicius (Post 449371)
don't you have to get the Z06 vette to get this

"Magnetic Ride Control suspension"
Nope, its an option on the regular Vettes.

101lifts2 02-11-2011 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449217)
Plenty of gauges have numbers on them.......But the needle still stays in one position all the time. Or if it moves, it moves slow as molasses. Get a real gauge like a VDO.
Yes the gauges are buffered, but the pressure is reading what the pressure is after the buffereing period, which is only a few seconds. Have you ever conntected an oil pressure gauge to an engine? It will bounce around a bit. I'd rather have the guages buffered.

101lifts2 02-11-2011 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449267)
Hesitate as in takes longer than a 4-cylinder to rev up and then rev back down........Too much reciprocating mass inside a big engine........And they waste energy shaking the car and stretching the motor mounts rather than putting the power down.

None of the V8's I've driven felt like they were as "connected" to the throttle as a good 4-cylinder is.

Yeah I know, how a car performs is more important than how it feels when you blip the gas, but I grew up driving 4's so that's the type of feeling I prefer.
Well...it may take longer for an 8 cylinder to rev up vs. a 4 cylinder, but remember you have half the power. redflip

Dave 02-11-2011 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101lifts2 (Post 449428)
Well...it may take longer for an 8 cylinder to rev up vs. a 4 cylinder, but remember you half the power. redflip
assumption. a lot of mustangs have lost to similar thoughts :lol

Homeslice 02-11-2011 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101lifts2 (Post 449427)
Yes the gauges are buffered, but the pressure is reading what the pressure is after the buffereing period, which is only a few seconds. Have you ever conntected an oil pressure gauge to an engine? It will bounce around a bit. I'd rather have the guages buffered.
WTF is the point of buffering?

I put a VDO mechanical oil pressure gauge on my Rabbit GTI (it didn't have a sensor, you had to hook up an oil hose to the back of it), and that thing was awesome how it responded. At startup it would stay pretty high for awhile, since cold oil is thicker......But after a few minutes it would start dropping down as the oil heated up. Eventually it would drop down to say 20-30 psi at idle, but then rise to 60-70 psi when you blip the throttle. I don't remember the exact pressure but that's not the point. Why would you want it buffered? A true enthusiast wants to know exactly what's happening when it happens.

Dave 02-11-2011 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449451)
WTF is the point of buffering?

I put a VDO mechanical oil pressure gauge on my Rabbit GTI (it didn't have a sensor, you had to hook up an oil hose to the back of it), and that thing was awesome how it responded. At startup it would stay pretty high for awhile, since cold oil is thicker......But after a few minutes it would start dropping down as the oil heated up. Eventually it would drop down to say 20-30 psi at idle, but then rise to 60-70 psi when you blip the throttle. I don't remember the exact pressure but that's not the point. Why would you want it buffered? A true enthusiast wants to know exactly what's happening when it happens.
its to keep mechanically illiterate fucktards from bringing the car back for unnecessary diagnostic service because "the gauges were moving". shit you not.

certain cars dont have them, the nsx's oil gauge is sensitive enough you can see a drop when the vtec system switches cam profiles. scc also made a big stink about the srt4 having "real gauges"

Homeslice 02-12-2011 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 449454)
its to keep mechanically illiterate fucktards from bringing the car back for unnecessary diagnostic service because "the gauges were moving". shit you not.
:lol: sad but probably true

Dave 02-12-2011 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449482)
:lol: sad but probably true
100% true. i work for whats basically a car rental service and you'd be floored at the kind of stuff these morons report. my favorite is the seatbelt alarm, which they always SWEAR they wore. :lol

101lifts2 02-12-2011 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449451)
WTF is the point of buffering?

I put a VDO mechanical oil pressure gauge on my Rabbit GTI (it didn't have a sensor, you had to hook up an oil hose to the back of it), and that thing was awesome how it responded. At startup it would stay pretty high for awhile, since cold oil is thicker......But after a few minutes it would start dropping down as the oil heated up. Eventually it would drop down to say 20-30 psi at idle, but then rise to 60-70 psi when you blip the throttle. I don't remember the exact pressure but that's not the point. Why would you want it buffered? A true enthusiast wants to know exactly what's happening when it happens.
The buffered gauges are the same, but the accumulation is over a few seconds so the gauge doesn't sit there and bounce around.

You are not calibrating or diagnosing anything. You don't need instantaneous pressure readings other than to make yourself look cool. To me it is just shit moving around that I don't need to see. Let me know when the oil pressure drops below a level that will do damage to lower end bearings. That is really all I need to know.

101lifts2 02-12-2011 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave (Post 449454)
its to keep mechanically illiterate fucktards from bringing the car back for unnecessary diagnostic service because "the gauges were moving". shit you not....
While there is some truth to this, the main reason is for the aesthetic look of the guage needle. Who wants to look at guages that sit there and bounce around every half second? It gets annoying after a while.

Quote:
...certain cars dont have them, the nsx's oil gauge is sensitive enough you can see a drop when the vtec system switches cam profiles. scc also made a big stink about the srt4 having "real gauges"
The NSX guages are still buffered, just not as long as say a Buick.

Avatard 02-12-2011 04:50 PM
It depends on whether you want something else doing the "averaging" for you or not.

Some people (myself included) don't want anything masked by a buffer or otherwise.

Sometimes the subtle details expressed on an unbuffered gauge can tell a person with a good eye more about what's really going on.

I hate any assumptions made about "what I need to see". Let me be the arbiter of that.

101lifts2 02-12-2011 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatard (Post 449573)
It depends on whether you want something else doing the "averaging" for you or not.

Some people (myself included) don't want anything masked by a buffer or otherwise.

Sometimes the subtle details expressed on an unbuffered gauge can tell a person with a good eye more about what's really going on.

I hate any assumptions made about "what I need to see". Let me be the arbiter of that.
That is fine in all, but you need to realize that ALL GAUGES ARE BUFFERED to an extent. Any gauge has to be segmented by some time or spring pressure differentiation. By how much is up to personal preference. This is what always gets me going when talking about this shit to non-engineers.

Avatard 02-12-2011 05:04 PM
How shit works and feels in the real world fucking matters. Fuck the math. Fuck the theory. This is what always gets me going when talking about this shit to engineers.

Homeslice 02-12-2011 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101lifts2 (Post 449572)
While there is some truth to this, the main reason is for the aesthetic look of the guage needle. Who wants to look at guages that sit there and bounce around every half second? It gets annoying after a while.
.
Why would it bounce around every second? Mine didn't. It only moved when I revved the engine.

101lifts2 02-12-2011 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeslice (Post 449581)
Why would it bounce around every second? Mine didn't. It only moved when I revved the engine.
Simple...your gauge is not that accurate. It is prolly in the zone of +/-3 PSI in order for the spring to even move. It is just a mechanical buffer instead of an electronic one.

If you were measuring the oil pressure in 1kPa increments, the thing would be bouncing all around at steady RPM because the oil pump creates pressure oscillations. You just choose to buffer it to 300kPa instead of 1kPa. Get it? It is really no different that waiting a few seconds and averaging the results, but rather a different way of doing it.

101lifts2 02-12-2011 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatard (Post 449578)
How shit works and feels in the real world fucking matters.....
That is exactly my point. You buffer something based upon it's intended use/user. If I'm an engine engineer, I want oil pressure to be measured every 100ms and in as small as 5kPa increments. If I'm a race car builder, I want it every 500ms and at 0.5PSI increments. And if I drive a fucking Buick Century with a dummy light, every 10 seconds on average with a 5PSI increment is good enough so I never see the light unless I have no oil in the engine.

It is all on how you wish to display the data pure and simple.

Avatard 02-12-2011 06:02 PM
Wow.

You actually made sense.

Who are you, and does 101 know you're logged onto his account?

101lifts2 02-12-2011 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatard (Post 449589)
Wow.

You actually made sense.

Who are you, and does 101 know you're logged onto his account?
That post was the product of 45k in student loans.:lol:

Avatard 02-12-2011 06:31 PM
We have to keep you in engineer mode more often.

Dave 02-12-2011 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101lifts2 (Post 449572)
While there is some truth to this, the main reason is for the aesthetic look of the guage needle. Who wants to look at guages that sit there and bounce around every half second? It gets annoying after a while.



The NSX guages are still buffered, just not as long as say a Buick.
Oil pressure in my park ave was actually pretty damned responsive. Could always tell at a look when it had burned through another quart


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