Awesoime!!! Engine isn't stuck
 

Not so awesome....damn bike wont crank. Now I have to get all electrical.
Electrical gremlins suck.
My zx has always had a history of finicky starting...especially after its been sitting.

Hit the starter button...nothing. No crank...just a click from the ignition box.
After shaking fists and shaken baby syndrome on all reachable wires and handle bars..it would start up. It would only do this if it were sitting more than a couple of weeks. I started it up last year for shits and giggles and discovered that if I hold the starter button while turning the key it would start every time. Weak battery...strong battery. didn't matter. It would at least crank. That was last year

Once I got the CBR, the ninja was parked in the garage with fresh fluids all topped off unregistered...unisinsured and ignored. "I'll eventually get around to cleaning it up and selling it".

Well I want to clean it up and make room in my garage.
And of course....nothing.
Got a cup of coffee
Took the tank off
Battery out
fuel pump out and a what the fuck is with all these wires?
I got this bike in 21rst century.
The asshole who had this in the 20th century apparently liked to things
1. Wheelies with no oil in the bike
2. covering up shitty splice jobs with electrical tape

for the first time ever.
I'm looking at the "electrical" section of the shop manual.

this sucks
and its cold out
and I have to track down some buffalo wings
and replace the leaky fuel valve (this going to be messy)


just venting

maybe begging for help soon.

It sounds like a loose ground to me. I'd start checking all of the plugs for good connection and pay special attention to the ground on the frame and engine.

Might as well keep track of work in this thread.
Sunday 2/5
Removed following
1. Tank
2. Airbox
3. Battery
4. Fuel pump
5. Spark plugs
6. breather hose...fuel drainage hoses
Screws kept in clear container with brown lid
Noticed oil on #2 and #4 spark plugs (already have SP well seals..will replace at later date)
Tossed rags in carb inlets.
Tossed it in second gear and rolled it back and forth to make sure everything moves freely.
Checked ground wire from battery, starter, starter solenoid and all the other wires in the vicinity under the seat. All passed wiggle wiggle test (carefully eyeballed multimeter on shelf...did not touch because its super bowl sunday and I'm not ready for all that electrical testin business)
Located disconnected sidestand switch and pulled off decades old grime encrusted electrical tape. Noted. identified wire to neutral switch and cleaned off connector.
Partially wiped down area around starter. More wiggle wiggle tests.
Focus on fuel tank.
Filled with old fuel but need to change out petcock. Swapped out for new one I had lying around but never got around to installing and replaced the line going to pump....but not actually going to the pump since I broke the fuel filter trying to get the line off. good thing I still have an old filter from years ago that I replaced for the fuck of it. Will take care of all on a warmer day when I strip the bike down more.

Put plugs back in and will continue next weeked.


Accomplishment today:
Replaced fuel petcock
replaced fuel line
broke fuel filter
Broke mount tab in tail section while trying to spin rear wheel. Will fix when body work is all off.

Looks like I'm going to be building some valuable experience.
I have just about zero experience troubleshooting electrical problems.
Just bought my first multimeter yesterday.
At least I have service manuals for the bike.

I've been thinking about this further.

Be sure you check the starter relay too. Those have a tendency to act as you've described when they are *going out*.

Good call.

Intermittent bastards are intermittent. Reasonably cheap item to swap out, if "testin stuff" isn't your bag.

Corroded switch contacts will also cause problems.

JC

And the shopping list begins

Figure out what exactly is clicking when you thumb the starter. It sounds like the starter relay. If it's clicking without engaging the starter, a quick and dirty test is to just jump the relay with a couple of screw drivers.

It actually sounds like the ignition box ( VH powerpak) but it could I need to double check

Definitely agree on the corroded contacts.

If there are a lot of crappy, electrical tape covered splices in the cables, though, my bet is more than one of them are just twisted wires with tape on them. I think that I'd start with some good auto grade heat shrink and a soldering iron, by redoing every one of those splices. Even if they aren't solder free, you can just bet that some are cold joints that have likely let go, by now.

Sucks man....

If I were closer I would bring you some brews and join you in cursing at your bike... :dthumb:

Went ahead and ordered the starter solenoid relay for shits and giggles. Twas cheap enough to do it for the shits and the giggling.
Hopefully it doesn't show up on Valentines day.
It would be an awkward moment when the wife asks "Is that for me" and I'm forced to answer: "No that's for the fat bitch in the garage"
The danger is that she would assume that she is "the fat bitch in the house" even though she is not fat.

Should have tried my quick and dirty test first.

Fat bitches like it quick and dirty...

Or so I've heard.

Ok...new starter solenoid is in.
Battery at 11.999999v
Just a click from junction box.

Can't devote too much time to it this weekend.
Next steps
1. Disassemble starter switch. Stare at its innards. Perhaps unload a can of electrical cleaner on the guts
2. Continue removal of all bodywork

Awesome thread, I'm having similar problems with my F4i. Rode it up to pick my son up from school on Friday and ended up having to push it home.

Before you get too far into it, re-check the battery and do a load test. It may show 11.99999v on your multi-meter, but batteries are fucking liars and are not to be trusted.

Put the tester back on, then hit the starter switch. If the reading drops more than a couple of volts, the battery may have a bad cell (or 6...). If you do have some bad cells, you aren't going to get enough cranking amps to get the job done, and what your ass needs is a new battery.

JC

Ooooh....good tip

I would be lucky to get my neutral and oil pressure lights on with a battery reading of under 12.0 volts. Forget about cranking.

Yep. This happened with my car. I was driving one evening this summer and turned on the lights and the car died. I thought the alternator was shot, but it was a bad cell in the battery. Apparently, the alternator in my car was fine, but simply doesn't put out enough juice to run the A/C compressor, cooling fan and lights all at the same time. Turning on the lights was all it took to kill the car.

I should probably add that the aforementioned load test, needs to be done on a fully charged (or as fully charged as you can get it) battery.

Load testing a partially charged batt, will result in false readings and conclusions.

No Worries makes a good point. You should be reading somewhere around 12.75 on a topped up batt, especially if you're trying to start a very cold (sub-freezing) bike.

JC

Thanks again AMJ(and others who are piping in)

Where does everyone get their batteries from nowadays?
I used to get mine from a local shop but they closed up.

Been buying from Interstate Batteries a lot lately, for both security/backup batteries and bike batteries.

http://www.interstatebatteries.com/c...r/Default.aspx

Auto Zone has a few common batteries. You have to add the acid and charge for 24 hours, but as long as you keep a trickle charger on, it seems to run for years.

I buy local, but would try motorcycle-superstore.com for a Yuasa.

I've switched to Odyssey batteries, but they don't appear to make one for your bike.

JC

I just got one from Advanced Auto for $56 with tax. They took care of the acid and the charge. I didn't shop around much due to time constraints, but Auto Zone wanted twice as much and they would have had to get it shipped to them.

I've had strange experiences with them. I've had one in a Bandit and currently one in my ZX12. Both of them cant be charged. I try to put a 1 amp trickle charger or a low amp auto charger on them sometimes over the winter but the Voltage instantly spikes to 17+ volts. At first I thought it was the charger not regulating the voltage but I've tried more than one charger and they work fine on other batteries. When they're in the Bike though, they charge fine at ~14 volts and have never died/let me down. Weird.

My guess is you're running the YTX14-BS in the ZX, because it's a half a pound lighter than the YTX14H-BS. I would too.

The former, is a VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) battery, commonly known as a Gel Cell. The short version is this: Unlike regular or AGM batteries, Gel Cells require special charging rates to keep them from freaking out, and it sounds to me like you are using the wrong type of charger.

JC

(....takes down notes.)

KMX14-BS.

Guessing this is the same as a YTX14-BS? Original Battery maybe?

Anyway, I had them on chargers that were good for AGM batteries (Roughly 14V Max) but I didnt realise Gel Batteries needed even lower Voltage than that. That could be the problem. If you watch it with a Multimeter, the Voltage shoots up to 17+ in a hurry. Luckily though they dont discharge much in the basement over the winter so they're ready to go in the Spring.

KMX14-BS is actually listed as an ATV battery, available only at Kawi dealers but shares the same specs as the YTX14-BS. Why, I don't know, but it is a VRLA type.

14 volt max should be fine for a Gel type. They usually want 13.8-14.1 for float charging.

The service life of the Gel batteries, is generally 2-5 years. They can develop bubbles or voids in the silica that suspends the acid. That may explain your 17v spikes, but that's just a theory.

The newer AGM batteries have all the positive features of the Gel's, but none of the drawbacks, except for added weight.

JC

Good to know. That may be the problem but like I said, it still works fine. They've never let me down. The first time I thumb the starter and it just groans at me though, it will be making a quick exit:lol:I know what you mean with the weight. I deal with a lot of AGM Heavy Truck batteries and they weigh a ton. Most of the ones we get dont have handles on them either. It's a great idea. Make a much heavier battery, then save some weight by getting rid of the Handles?:scratch::lol:

You never said you wanted to lift the battery....:lol:

JC

Spent most of the day cleaning 10 years of grime. Couple parts that I assumed to be black turned out not to be :)
All the body work is off as well as tank, fuel lines, fuel pump and air box. Replaced a couple lines and tightened up a couple of loose bits.
Might clean carbs tomorrow or if it's tight shedule I'll go through all the ground points/wiring.
Meanwhile the new battery is sitting in the basement

So, hooked up fuel pump. Put in fresh battery for shits and giggles.
Turn key
Nothing
No brake light, no dash light, nothing.
Battery is above 12v.

Main fuse? Bad relay?

Battery connections tight?

Sorry, had to ask.

Will have to check...but I already put everything away.

Just to be sure...I should still get dash lights if the sidestand switch is borked (even though it wont crank)

Yup.
Checking from the starter relay I get 12+ volts

On every bike I've had the lights still come on, if the sidestand switch is buggered/disconnected.

30A fuse is good

Bad voltage regulator/rectifier?

If the main fuse is good, and you've got voltage at the starter relay input terminals, then you've got to look at the out voltage output of the starter relay and the headlight relay. If the starter relay is toast, then you won't get any power to the reg/rec, headlight relay, anything. Also look for splices in that line. If you see any don't mess around; just redo them.

That would only affect the charging system and should cause it to not turn over.

If you have power at the starter... check the trigger wire to the solenoid. If you're not getting the 12v trigger stab, then it has to be a safety or the start button itself.

I believe Paul said he replaced the starter relay, so the next likely candidates are the starter button, corroded starter motor connections, or, as you said, a wiring fault in the harness.

Recheck the wiring harness for dodgy connections, (pull every single connector apart and clean them) then look for any spots that appear as if they could have been pinched by the seat, tank, triple trees, or over tightened zip-ties (common problem areas).

Side stand switches come in two basic varieties. Some will prevent the bike from starting, some will kill the motor as soon as you put it in gear. Either way, disconnect that stupid shit. Usually, all you have to do is bridge the two switch wires together.

JC

Tipover sensor? lol

On the ZX-11?
The tip over sensor is the riders ankle, the back up being the shoulder.
Tip over sensors are for fancy bikes with "lectronic ciruit mobbies"
To reset the sensor, you simply placed the bike back on two wheels

Innards of the ZX are vacuum tubes linked to brass steam work logic engines powered by rain water.

On a couple of my bikes, you had to take off the seat and reset the switch manually.

Doesn't sound like it, but are you still getting the "click from the starter box" you mentioned earlier?

When the ZX was working properly did any lights turn on when you only turned the key? On my bike (old R6) the dash, headlights, taillights, and other shit all come on when I turn the key, regardless of what is happening with the kickstand, killswitch, starter button, or being in gear. From my recollection all the bikes I have been around do "something" when you turn the key on. If the ZX did anything when you turned the key before, but isn't anymore, you may want to investigate your key switch.

Prior to this, with the old battery I'd get juice (lights..the clicks etc ), but it wouldn't start.

Pulled off all the bodywork to do cleaning and checking.
Got the new battery, tossed it in.
Zilch..no lights, no nothing.

With switch off
test the battery -12.x
Positive terminal on battery to frame - 12.x
Connections on the starter relay - 12.x

Turn key to on
test the battery - shoots down to zero
Connections on the starter relay - shoots down to zero

Did you charge the battery at all before you put it in?

You can hook the old battery back up and see if it does the same thing (nothing and voltage dropping to zero) or you can connect jumper cables off a car (with the car off) to your new battery and see if the lights etc. come on. If the same thing happens it may be a short in your ignition. If it acts normally the battery may have been shipped without a charge or it is a bad battery.

Sounds like a dead short or, and this will sound stupid, a battery that has been connected backwards. Or a fried Reg/Rec. Or a battery that has almost zero charge (no current equals no voltage, when you turn the key; high resistance in the voltmeter means you read voltage, even with almost no charge).

Have you tried putting the old battery back in? I've lost track of what you've tried and what you haven't. Maybe a recap?

Honda regulator/rectifiers are known to be crap, it's affected CBR's for the last 10-12 years, although supposedly not as bad these days.

Great success in wierd crappy way.

Pull car up...take note that my wife is a slob when it comes to the car.
Hook up Jumper cables to car
Connect Positive to MC battery terminal and negative to frame.
Nada
Connect negative to Negative and say screw it to all this business

It was like Christmas. The lights shining nice and bright.
Hit the starter button...nada.
Oh well...cursed two times followed by a "2 steps back...one step forward.
hit start button again after doing something I cant rememebr
Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-

FUCKER IS TURNING OVER!!

But wait...I took my hand off the starter button.

Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-

Why is this fucker still trying to start?

Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-

(turns key to off)

Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-

(removes key from ignition)

Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-

Yanks off jumper cables.

(silence)


Come back a minute later to see if it will start again.

As soon as I connect the negative battery to the frame

Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer-Kawer!!!!

I'm I to assume that the battery I received is defective?

(thanks for the tip goof2)

Bad new battery, bad ignition switch, and/or bad starter switch.

FYI:
The kick stand switch was removed prior and the wires had been poorly spliced.
All my shenanigans today are with the wires unspliced and hanging there.

I think that's your winner. (As far as the constant cranking issue).

I think that it's more than just that, based on the fact that it cranked even after the key was yanked. It's certainly something in that circuit though.

The battery may not be bad, it could be it just needs a charge. Most batteries have been sitting around for a while before you get it and they typically recommend throwing them on a charger for a bit before install.

You could either have problems with your starter button, key switch, and kickstand kill switch (assuming it kills the bike when in an open condition) or there is a short somewhere bypassing those and sending juice directly to the starter from the battery.

Out of curiosity was the kill switch on when all the cranking was happening?

I would lean toward the short to the starter theory for a few reasons. One, it sounds like someone did a pretty good job "fixing" a lot of the wiring already which lends itself nicely to the short idea. Second, it is unlikely all three switches mentioned above failed (four if you toss in the handlebar kill switch). Third, that would turn the bike over even though either/both the kickstand kill switch or handlebar kill switch could have the ignition shut off. Cranking without ignition would also provide a nice explanation for why the bike won't start.

Sounds like the wiring to the starter is shot. It might be grounding itself out somewhere, completing the circuit, which makes it crank even when the button isn't pushed.

The kill switch was set run.
One tidbit from yesteryear when the bike was running :
During the times it wouldn't crank using the start button I could get it to start by turning key to off, hold the start and then while holding start turn the key to on. Would start every time.

Turned out stuck starter solenoid. Quick whack fixed it

Also took apart starter switch and cleaned it out. With the jumper cables on, cleaned out switch, brand new punched in the balls starter relay and proper key position bike behaves as it should.

Good, does that mean it cranks or actually starts and runs?

Haven't put the tank back on still have some reassembly to do so I'm not sure if its getting spark\fuel pump is running.

I did toss the new battery on the charger (older Diehard 2/5/50) last night until I got a green and popped it in during lunch.

Hit the start button and not enough to kick over but it sounded like an honest try. Couple of stabs at the button resulted in consistent behavior typical of a low battery.

Final test
Turn bike off and on and lights are at half intensity got a slight buzzy squeal from coils.

Before you put it back together, take a good run at all the wiring. It might save you a lot of time and frustration later on.

I've gone through starter switch, starter relay, headlight connectors, deceased kickstand switch wiring, ground point at thermostat bracket, fuel pump connector.

I've cursed at the connector for the junction box and the IC box.
Y U NO COME OFF!!!

I've also touched the housing for the clutch switch but have yet to crack it open.

Other items I've stared at but only in a "scowl...get to you if I have to kinda of way" is the ground point at the engine case (battery cable) and cable from the starter relay to the cable.


I've also ordered a Battery Tender Plus because my Die Hard 2\10\50 charger annoys me.

I was thinking more about taking apart all of those questionable splices then redoing them yourself, using solder and a good grade of automotive self-sealing heat shrink. But whatever. Scowl away.

So far the only questionable splice was the kickstand switch wire.
After a closer look, it looked like someone initially cut into the the sheath and used a wire to connect everything (hence the crappy electrical tape job and then later on took the connector off, twisted the wires and popped the connector back on.
As for other areas, what I thought to be questionable splices were just extra electrical tape @ rub points and as a way to keep wires organized.
My initial reaction was from a position of ignorance of bike wiring.

Take a look at a racebike that's been stripped of everything, right down to the wiring harness, and you'll never make that mistake again.

Just retested.

Had battery on charger most of the day.
Popped it in
At first all the lights come on fairly strong.
Hit the start button...nothing but a click.
Turn key off then back on lights are dim, buzz from the ignitor and then lights begin to fade.
Also tach needle is floating.
(Identical issue http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-tech...ing-sound.html )

Hook jumper cables up to the car and no problemo.

So I think the solution to my problem is to install my wifes car as a sidecar.

This is the new battery, right?

JC

Yup..the Powersonic PTX14-bs (Originally ordered a powersonic YTX14-bs but they switched it on me after I ordered and gave me the AGM battery since they ran outof the YTX) that was supposed to replace the unrechargeable ancient mangled Yuasa that was in there.

It looks like cheapo replacement battery is cheapo for a reason.

Powersonic? :lol:

Where'd you but that, the Home Shopping Channel?

Did it come with steak knives, or a vacuum attachment?

JC

And all of the VFRs since the mid-90's. VFR's just burn them up like crazy. They were shit stock pieces, no doubt from cheap parts that arent up to the task. Most likely cost cutting. Honda should know better, and should have fixed it a long time ago. An R1 R/R is usually the best option for the VFR. Much bigger with larger and deeper cooling fins.

Our 2/10/50 charger was essential in getting the 500 back running because we had to crank on it so much initially to get it to bite until we got the carbs right after many attempts at cleaning. It would run the battery down in no time and my Tender doesnt put out enough juice to roll it over. The 2/10/50 was a godsend....

Sounds like something you'd get at Pacific Mall, north of Toronto.

"Powasonic good battery. You buy! Work long time! You buy, you get free DVD playa.

You be hea fo owa. You go now."

:lol

I've got an "off" brand in my bike too. Even at dealer cost the factory Yuasa is around $130. I'm happy with the weird-ass brand that was $40 and still working fine after 2 years.

Picked up another battery, generic Honda Motorsport brand. Put it on tender for couple hours and just popped it in bike. Cranks over like a champ. On to next items...

Goof will give you forty bucks for the other one.

JC

The good news - It runs.
Ran it a pretty high mix of seafoam and gas through it so it ran like crap and was a bit of smoke show but it will run. Few screws on the floatbowls have shot heads so haven't opened it up for a thorough cleaning. Will need to take care of that. Who ever buys it will need to balance the carbs since I don't have anything to do it with it and I've never done it myself.

Some shots sans bodywork

The bad news - I was so focused on the "running part" I didn't notice my headlight bulb was hanging down on the front fender

Whats thats smell? Oh shit!!!

That's a homer simpson moment...

http://blackwaterdog.files.wordpress...-doh.gif?w=290

Time for some 3M Automix and a spray bomb.

Bike starts right up...and idles like crap. Give it gas when its cold and will try and bog.
As it warms up, same old dance of idling like crap, give it the gas and bogs, stumbles until it gets past a certain point and then its straight to redline.


So lets talk carbs for a second.
Lets talk about 16 fucking float bowl screws.
8 of them..removed and chucked to the coffee can of discarded screws. replaced by hex head allen key whatever you want to call them.
5 of the original brass shitsville screws keilin likes to toss on their carbs were put back in.

That leaves 3.
3 stripped...and not budging POS shit screws holding on for dear life FUCK MY AFTER NOON IS WASTED BECAUSE TODAY was going to be the day I went to town on the carbs day but damnit my tool collection apparently sucks for fucking stripped out carb screws.
One fucked up screw in 3 float bowls.

So lets just put it out there that the bike runs like shit because 3 years of sitting has gummed up the carbs....

1. You'll need vise-grips more than likely to get them out, but first, take the screwdriver, put it against the screws, and give it a few sharp whacks with the hammer, then take the vise-grips to the screws. You should have done that first.

2. Go to Sears and get a tool called an impact screwdriver for next time.

You should have asked before you screwed stuff up. Rook. ;)

Every project is an excuse to buy tools. You clearly don't have enough. :)

I did try the whack a driver first on all shady looking screw...except for the first one. I tore that one a new asshole before I realized I sabotaged my day.
Went for the dremel on the first one but then idealized the starter kit for my dremel is better suited to the pine derby race car I bought it for.

I wasn't going to ask because that would mean I have lick of sense.

Here's my stripped screws. I used a hacksaw to make a groove in the screw and used a common-head screwdriver to take it out:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/299...pedscrews1.jpg
Then I put in hex-head screws (M4x0.7, 10mm long):
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7...edscrews2d.jpg

Here's how I clean the Keihin carbs on my CBR: http://cbrforum.com/forum/how-tos-81...needle-103846/

Awesome...page bookmarked

New spark plugs, headlight bulb and laser sight equipped infrared thermometer just showed up on the door step.

Guess which one of those items is getting played with right now?

You bought a laser sight equipped infrared thermometer?

What, the melted fender wasn't proof enough for you? :lol:

JC

TMI, dude...

:lol

At first I thought that TMI was an acronym for the thermometer and that I needed to stop referring to half the crap in my tool box as "thingies". That it was time to learn the common names of the all tools and technical names.

I still have learning to do.

but then i thought about it...
Particle Man thinks I'm pointing this thing at my wibbly bits while asking my wife "hot or cold"

He's right
too much information

See? :lol:

Those infrared thermos are neat. You can see the temperature variance across the tire, see which vents are blowing heat and which aren't, and make crème brûlée just perfect. I don't know what the fuck you'd do with it on a carb though.

Check the temperature at the exhaust headers. Cool pipes are richer than hot pipes, with the middle two generally running slightly hotter than the outer on an inline 4.

Yup

Bought it to check the headers to see if I have tomfoolery going on.
If one cylinder no-makee the bang bang...will know which one to hack at.


added to some more to the collection of tool thingies today
craftsman impact screwdriver, screw extractors and a new garden hose nozzle.
Also picked up some more M4 2.5 hex screws to replace the remainder of the floatbowl screws.


By the time I'm done with this bike, it will be in better shape than when I bought it a decade ago.

Gee, all that I got was a compound mitre saw, saw table, router, and a load of cedar planking.

Note to self - next time I need to wrench on my bike, I'm coming to your place.

Cool, now your a certified Harley tech.

JC