Passing at the track

[shmike]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

The last point I'll make for now is that the one thing I see repeatedly with riders who are getting frustrated that they can't pass, is that they're riding ON the rear wheel of the bike in front of them..... GIVE THEM SPACE! This helps YOU relax a bit & maybe formulate a "game plan" and it also gives you a chance to build up some momentum coming out of a corner so that by the time you reach them you've already built up more speed than they have, making the pass a lot easier. If you're ON their rear tire coming out of a corner then it comes down to a drag race to the next corner that you may or may not win. Make the pass based on your skill as a rider, not your bike's capabilities.

Excellent point.

I go through this every track day with the Novice and Intermediate riders.

Oreo & Zoomie explained it well: If you sit on someone's back tire, they dictate your speed and throttle pick up points. By hanging back you actually make it easier to pass them.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

EDIT: I am talking about intermediate and advanced groups here... novice groups I think stricter passing rules do make sense obviously. Also, I am not taking a dig at Tony who I just noticed posted above (Hi Tony) and whose track days I did many of when I was starting out. I am merely saying that more lenient rules can easily help a day run smoother as long as the same logic and sensibility are applied to their implementation and enforcement that you would apply to stricter rules.

In my experience all the no-inside-passing rule does is prevent traffic from flowing. Especially on a tight track.

Maybe a no inside passing at or near the apex of turns rule would make sense. But passing under braking by setting up to the inside, or late apexing and driving out under someone... both of those are simple and common safe passes. In the case of the braking maneuver, you need to get the pass done before the other rider is going to turn in.

There is a very common rider at track days who is just quick enough to be in the way, usually in the intermediate group and on a large displacement CBRGSXRZXRR... they late apex the SHIT out of every corner, starting way outside and swooping in like they are on the street, drive very wide out of the corners, and hammer it in between the corners... without more lenient passing rules this person is impossible to pass for riders of similar speed. And trains of riders all lined up getting frustrated is far more dangerous in my opinion than allowing more passing to be done. This rider, you can talk to them about lines and try to help them (I always do) but often times they are going to ride the way they want to ride. I know you can pit in and look for some empty space... but at a well-attended track day it's going to be an effort in futility... and there is always more than one of "this rider"

Most people make safety claims as the reason for these rules... but most of the multi-bike incidents (of which there are few) I have seen involve a rider crashing and someone else (who was waiting to or about to pass them) being unable to avoid them. At a recent track day I saw this first hand, a very good rider (actually novice racer) was set up to the outside and behind of someone quite a bit slower than them about to out-drive them out of a corner, the slower rider tucked the front and the faster rider couldn't avoid their bike.

I think more lenient passing rules help to minimize these incidents (although I don't see a way this particular incident could have been avoided)

[TTD]

To build upon the post above (without quoting the whole thing)...


I don't know about other trackdays, but for us the no-passing on the inside rule starts at the tip in point.

Passing under braking is allowed and encouraged and I believe is one of the safer places to pass...especially when done early in the braking zone.

For the most part though, we simply tell people that if the passer can get fully in front of the passee before tip in point... then it's a legal pass.

We have even gone further and say now that the no passing area is from tip in point to the apex (or the point where both bikes begin standing up their bikes). So setting up an early exit pass can happen too.

In most places, the tip in to apex section is over in a second or two, so making the pass in that area is silly and needlessly dangerous, in my opinion.

As for riders going down and the following rider hitting them, that's an unfortunate case of track riding regardless of the rules.

I know at our days we stress to either make the pass, or hang back... and for gods sake do NOT watch the other bike's tail section... look past them.

We stress "Do NOT go nose to tail" because of the exact situation Chris describes above.

In fact, being on someone's ass is the WORST way to set up a pass, so there is really no reason to do it.

Bottom line is that passing at a trackday is an artform (other than motoring by someone on the straight). It takes a while to learn how to do it safely and minimize the overall risk.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by TTD

I don't know about other trackdays, but for us the no-passing on the inside rule starts at the tip in point.

...

We have even gone further and say now that the no passing area is from tip in point to the apex (or the point where both bikes begin standing up their bikes). So setting up an early exit pass can happen too.

So you guys allow passing on either side except for tip-in to apex? I didn't know that. It makes sense to me and jives with what I said above.


And about the incident I described, in more detail... especially on a smaller/tighter track, if you pass on the outside you are going to open yourself up to that possibility almost no matter how you pass them. Eric (I'm sure you know him) was not set up on the guys tail, the slower rider just happened to crash at the wrong moment as his initiated his move. This was going up turn 4, so it was a somewhat odd place for the slower rider to tuck the front in the first place. Like you described, just a track incident that can happen regardless of the rules.

Originally Posted by Trip

Screw it, you guys should have a slap people on the ass rule before you can pass them.

I have done this to friends...

[the chi]

Great thread!

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of the posts. I have a phobia of passing and am still trying very much to get over it, making improvement but I hesitate and often lose my chance because I dont have the balls to make the pass. Thus why I'm still in Novice. I cant ride for other people, and its always the thought of "what if they do something crazy" that holds me back. Unless I'm in the zone . Then I don't even see them other than to dart by. Those are the good days.

It's the passers responsibility to pass safely in all situations. Down here most of the track days allow outside passing only in Novice, but alot of times so long as it's a safe pass, they dont say anything. My last track day my CR had me running ragged chasing her and her hubby (also a CR) down and forcing me to pass others to break me of the hesitation. I saw HUGE improvement and had one helluva time, I cant wait to see them again!

I gotta say, if someone is turned around looking at me, I will immediately get as far from them as possible as they arent paying attention to what they should be paying attention to. In all the days I've done, most instructors are adamant that you NEVER look back. If you get busted doing so, you're in for a very long lecture.

And Derf nailed it on the pitting in. If you just cant safely get past someone, pit. Let them go and give yourself some space. If someone is irritating the shit out of you on the track, pit. It's not worth the stress.

You're out there to become the best rider YOU can be, not to be billy badass and see how many folks you can piss off by scaring the snot outta them.

I will say to, it is not unheard of for me to apologize to someone if I feel I stuffed them, or passed too closely. I know I hated it as a brand new track rider when some jerk was running all over me so I try to extend some courtesy towards others.

[Trip]

The gap passes cured me of any fear of passing or being passed. Especially local night runs.

[CrazyKell]

And I think another good point is that if someone passes you unsafely (not just because you were scared but a truely unsafe pass), pull in and have a word with the marshalls. They can't see everything.

I had a guy on a supermoto jump the turtles and go offroading to pass me last year. I was in beginner group and there's no passing except on the straights. It was my first track day and I had a huge pink X on my back (meaning give me LOTS of space).

I pulled in all flustered and my buddy came over to see what was up. I told him what happened and he said "He can't pull shit like that" and stormed off to the marshalls and the guy was black flagged.

[the chi]

*shudder* Something I have still managed to wriggle out of every year ya'll did it.

[CrazyKell]

Oreo made me think of a good point.

There is nothing more annoying than a bike that passes me in the straights only to park it in the corners. I know it's going to be a relaxed lap at that point....but it's just aggravating when they blow by you like Ricky Road Racer because they have a litre bike, only to absolutely park it in the corners. Grrr.

[the chi]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

The last point I'll make for now is that the one thing I see repeatedly with riders who are getting frustrated that they can't pass, is that they're riding ON the rear wheel of the bike in front of them..... GIVE THEM SPACE! This helps YOU relax a bit & maybe formulate a "game plan" and it also gives you a chance to build up some momentum coming out of a corner so that by the time you reach them you've already built up more speed than they have, making the pass a lot easier. If you're ON their rear tire coming out of a corner then it comes down to a drag race to the next corner that you may or may not win. Make the pass based on your skill as a rider, not your bike's capabilities.

It's interesting you say this, I was told I needed to be RIGHT THERE on the back tire and ready to pass the moment I got an opportunity. Food for thought.

Originally Posted by CrazyKell

Oreo made me think of a good point.

There is nothing more annoying than a bike that passes me in the straights only to park it in the corners. I know it's going to be a relaxed lap at that point....but it's just aggravating when they blow by you like Ricky Road Racer because they have a litre bike, only to absolutely park it in the corners. Grrr.

Thats standard fare at a track day sweetie, might as well get used to it and dont let it bother you. Thats why you pit to get away from those folks.