Passing at the track

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

That someone shouldn't have to be "courteous." Sean, you know better

Passing is hinky in most inexperienced groups to begin with. Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience. Stalk, learn how predictable that person is, then pass where you can do it safely. This is what we practice.

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by azoomm

Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience.

There are two major problems with passing on the outside. First, it often requires you to be significantly faster than the person you are passing, and two, it leaves you directly in the path of a crashing motorcycle/rider if that person happens to go down while you are trying to ride around the outside of them. Inside passing is MUCH easier. It's fast, it's safer for the passer, and it can be done virtually anywhere on the track. Watching national level riders get through traffic is a thing of beauty, because they can do it virtually anywhere without losing time, and with minimal disruption to the slower riders. The better you are the less patience is needed, because in reality, there is almost always room.

[smileyman]

Smileyman's rule numba 1. Someone is always faster.

Smileyman's rule Numba 2. Karma is a bitch.

Hold your line, leave some room on the outside of the straights, and have fun

The faster rider usually carries more corner speed and gets a better drive no matter hisline. He or she can pass on the straight if you leave hime 18 inches. If your real squeamish better make that 36 inches...

[Captain Morgan]

She's questioning my reasoning for looking behind me and waving people by on my trackday this weekend. Here's the full story, if you haven't seen it in the other thread.

I was on the V-strom on the track. It was sportbiketracktime. If any of you have ever ridden any of their events, you know they have classroom instruction for beginners and then they take the beginners out in groups of 4 or 5 riders with an instructor. I didn't want to ride in a group of people like that and wanted to ride my own pace. The only way to do that was in intermediate. I was the slowest person in the group, by far, simply because of the bike I was on. I scraped peg numerous times and the back end got loose a few times. I was also running the stock "Death Wings" on the bike. I simply couldn't go much faster without losing it.

I am fully aware that it's the passing rider's responsibility to pass safely and I maintained a consistent line on the track to allow them to do so. However, out of courtesy for the other riders on the track, I would look behind me in certain stretches where it was safe to do so, and I would move off the line so they could pass.

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

ETA: I did consider dropping down to the beginner group after the first session in intermediate, but was told I was doing fine and it was ok to stay where I was.

[CrazyKell]

Originally Posted by Captain Morgan

She's questioning my reasoning for looking behind me and waving people by on my trackday this weekend. Here's the full story, if you haven't seen it in the other thread.

I was on the V-strom on the track. It was sportbiketracktime. If any of you have ever ridden any of their events, you know they have classroom instruction for beginners and then they take the beginners out in groups of 4 or 5 riders with an instructor. I didn't want to ride in a group of people like that and wanted to ride my own pace. The only way to do that was in intermediate. I was the slowest person in the group, by far, simply because of the bike I was on. I scraped peg numerous times and the back end got loose a few times. I was also running the stock "Death Wings" on the bike. I simply couldn't go much faster without losing it.

I am fully aware that it's the passing rider's responsibility to pass safely and I maintained a consistent line on the track to allow them to do so. However, out of courtesy for the other riders on the track, I would look behind me in certain stretches where it was safe to do so, and I would move off the line so they could pass.

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

ETA: I did consider dropping down to the beginner group after the first session in intermediate, but was told I was doing fine and it was ok to stay where I was.

I wasn't ripping on you. I was just curious as to your reasoning and that got me thinking that maybe different things are allowed with different organizations. It was nothing more than curiosity.

But like others have said, it's not the safest practice.

It does concern me that you think their money is somehow worth more than yours. Everyone paid to be out there. If the organizers thought you grossly unsafe they would move you to a more appropriate group.

I pay my money the same as the fast guys. I hold my line and am very predictable on the track. It is their responsibility to get around me safely; not my responsibility to let them get their money's worth.

Oh and as a complete aside, I saw a v strom at my last track day and that guy was booking it. Looks like a super fun ride!

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

There are two major problems with passing on the outside. First, it often requires you to be significantly faster than the person you are passing, and two, it leaves you directly in the path of a crashing motorcycle/rider if that person happens to go down while you are trying to ride around the outside of them. Inside passing is MUCH easier. It's fast, it's safer for the passer, and it can be done virtually anywhere on the track. Watching national level riders get through traffic is a thing of beauty, because they can do it virtually anywhere without losing time, and with minimal disruption to the slower riders. The better you are the less patience is needed, because in reality, there is almost always room.

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous. They have all watched the pros do it. The majority of them have the single goal of "getting a knee down." And, if that means stuffing someone going into a corner letting them brag about how they were Ricky Racer at the track over the weekend passing people, then they will do that.

Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups. Learning to hold a line and be confident with that line is sometimes a large enough lesson without someone else in the peripheral.

Derf's note about pit lane - finding your own personal space on the track filled with parades - is IMHO the best way to deal with rules about passing.

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by azoomm

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous..[snip]..Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups.

I understand holding novice riders back from passing in corners. The issue I have is organizations that allow passing in corners, but only on the outside. There is certainly nothing wrong with passing on the outside, but opportunities to do it are few and far between compared to a traditional inside maneuver, so new riders should start working on that very early on. If riders were better at passing across the board, track days would be much less frustrating. Having your first opportunity to pass traditionally come when you are grouped in advanced with a bunch of racers and seasoned track riders is a bad situation. Not only will you have trouble filtering through traffic, but you will be unprepared for the maneuvers that faster riders will be putting on you.

Which is a nice segue into...

Originally Posted by Captain Morgan

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

This.

You are better off, if you are slower, to simply maintain your predictable course of travel. And, for the love of all that's holy, don't drag race on the straight when they actually DO pass you.

[Trip]

I am glad there is no passing rules for fiddy racing. Kicking, punching, wrecking, headbutting, running over are all acceptable forms of passing.

[smileyman]

Originally Posted by Trip

I am glad there is no passing rules for fiddy racing. Kicking, punching, wrecking, headbutting, running over are all acceptable forms of passing.

Oh...like in Canadian Superbike?