Passing at the track

[The Awesome]

Originally Posted by azoomm

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous..[snip]..Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups.

I understand holding novice riders back from passing in corners. The issue I have is organizations that allow passing in corners, but only on the outside. There is certainly nothing wrong with passing on the outside, but opportunities to do it are few and far between compared to a traditional inside maneuver, so new riders should start working on that very early on. If riders were better at passing across the board, track days would be much less frustrating. Having your first opportunity to pass traditionally come when you are grouped in advanced with a bunch of racers and seasoned track riders is a bad situation. Not only will you have trouble filtering through traffic, but you will be unprepared for the maneuvers that faster riders will be putting on you.

Which is a nice segue into...

Originally Posted by Captain Morgan

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

This.

You are better off, if you are slower, to simply maintain your predictable course of travel. And, for the love of all that's holy, don't drag race on the straight when they actually DO pass you.

[Trip]

I am glad there is no passing rules for fiddy racing. Kicking, punching, wrecking, headbutting, running over are all acceptable forms of passing.

[smileyman]

Originally Posted by Trip

I am glad there is no passing rules for fiddy racing. Kicking, punching, wrecking, headbutting, running over are all acceptable forms of passing.

Oh...like in Canadian Superbike?

[Trip]

Originally Posted by smileyman

Oh...like in Canadian Superbike?

If we didn't have helmets there could be possibly some biting incidents. It's no holds barred and it rocks.

This is why I dislike track days, it's too regulated.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by Trip

If we didn't have helmets there could be possibly some biting incidents. It's no holds barred and it rocks.

This is why I dislike track days, it's too regulated.

I had my first track suit get ripped when I got run over racing 50's with SEMRA.

The guy behind me was on a TTR 125 and his peg hit me in the shoulder as I face-planted in the dirt section.

I could lose him on the asphalt but he always caught me in the dirt. I think that kid ran over me like 3 times that weekend.

[Trip]

Originally Posted by shmike

I had my first track suit get ripped when I got run over racing 50's with SEMRA.

The guy behind me was on a TTR 125 and his peg hit me in the shoulder as I face-planted in the dirt section.

I could lose him on the asphalt but he always caught me in the dirt. I think that kid ran over me like 3 times that weekend.

lol nice, I love those things. You can race 150% without any fear whatsoever.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by The Awesome

I understand holding novice riders back from passing in corners. The issue I have is organizations that allow passing in corners, but only on the outside. There is certainly nothing wrong with passing on the outside, but opportunities to do it are few and far between compared to a traditional inside maneuver, so new riders should start working on that very early on. If riders were better at passing across the board, track days would be much less frustrating. Having your first opportunity to pass traditionally come when you are grouped in advanced with a bunch of racers and seasoned track riders is a bad situation. Not only will you have trouble filtering through traffic, but you will be unprepared for the maneuvers that faster riders will be putting on you.

Which is a nice segue into...



From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

100% Agreement.

At our local trackdays it is absolutely not allowed in Novice. Azoom explained the reasons why.

While I agree that the outside pass is overly burdensome, that is somewhat on purpose. It places the burden squarely on the passer. If he goes in too hot and stands the bike up, he doesn't collect the bike he tried to pass. Same thing with a washed front end.

How many times have you seen ricky racer with more balls then brains shoot way hot into a turn, brake all the way to the edge of the track, pull a u-turn and rocket to the next missed entry point? Him having to pass on the outside helps protect the riders trying to learn the proper line.

We frown upon passing on the inside in Intermediate but there is room to fudge the rules based on the situation. If you out brake someone into the turn, odds are it is on the inside. We ask that riders get the move done before turning in.

Obviously if you have a multi-turn complex, there may be an inside pass made but we'd prefer you wait until the next straight.

Like Mr. Awesome said please DO NOT try to "help out" the faster riders. They will get by. It is safer for all involved to hold your line and look forward. If I saw you going off-line and looking back, we'd have chat on hot-pit.

[fasternyou929]

Originally Posted by shmike

If I saw you going off-line and looking back, we'd have chat on hot-pit.

What org are you CRing for?

Still need to get you up here for for an event. NESBA just added 3 dates over the Halloween weekend at Road Atlanta, would you be able to make it? I ride A with them so we'd be in the same group and could turn some laps together. At least until you learned the track.

[shmike]

Originally Posted by fasternyou929

What org are you CRing for?

Still need to get you up here for for an event. NESBA just added 3 dates over the Halloween weekend at Road Atlanta, would you be able to make it? I ride A with them so we'd be in the same group and could turn some laps together. At least until you learned the track.

www.FloridaTrackdays.com mostly. But I'll ride for whomever asks as long as it gets me in the gate.

Let me know when you are doing Road A.

I think I am going to try out the endurance thing at the CCS ROC this year so as long as the weekends don't coincide I'll make it a point to be there.