Body Positioning
 

As you may or may not know, I was at TGPR last Monday. It felt a lot different than Nashville and I wasn't as comfy as I was @ Nashville either. After seeing the pictures, I think I look like a frog.

So, my request is that my body positioning be critiqued so that I may improve. Thank you.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/d.../C1700259E.jpg

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b3...s/66eba762.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_iWoH2wsiCF0/SS...20day%203a.jpg

doesnt look like your getting your bum off the seat enough, and you look like you're leaning forward and not sticking your knee out there. kinda like your humpin your tank too close, crowding your body all up in the front.

I've heard that if you are putting more than 1 asscheek off the seat, its too much.

depends on where your ass is sliding off the seat though. the rear of the seat is almost twice as large as the front, and like i said you look crammed up on your tank.

I agree with NTS. Drop your elbow more... which will drop your shoulder and get you over. That will upright the bike more, which means more contact patch on your tires. If you look, you are at the WAAaaaaay edge of your tire - if you get your body over, and the bike up more... the contact will be better.

This is so much easier to talk about in person rather than trying to type it :lol:

Agreed that upper body needs to be off more.

Disagree with not being on the tank. Sitting up is bad.

lol i hear ya, i really couldnt find the right words to describe what i was trying to say.

yeah, you are twisting your body, definitely need to rotate the upper body out more and drop the elbow. That's my biggest problem too.

get out from behind the windscreen - specifically your head - the rest will follow. Try lining up your eyes/head with where your mirrors WOULD be.

When you go around a turn to your left, centrifugal forces want to stand the bike up, and fling it off to the right. Your body weight is what keeps it down. Think of it as a tug of war against the centrifugal forces as essentially controlled by the throttle. The more you are leaned inside against these forces with your weight, the harder you can theoretically crank on the throttle without the bike actually standing up, and you flying up and over to the right.

Just like in a tug of war with a rope, you lean away from the pull of the forces by increasing your angle relative to your inside most contact [fulcrum] point (in this case your inside footpeg) to maximize the effectiveness of your weight.

In other words, the harder you're tugging that shit down towards the inside, the harder you can crank on the gas, and the faster you can go through the turn, the limiting factors then being essentially tire contact and adhesion.

Yes, the more you hang off that shit like a desperate tug-of-war participant, the faster you can go, all other things being equal.

Keeping the weight bias forward is essential if the bike is understeering, and when on throttle for exit, it will keep the back more tucked in. It's not so much one position, as a smooth arc motion. Lead with your forehead.

Attach the pics.

Try to find some video of European pocketbike racers. On the tiny bikes, the motions are all exaggerated, and it's all easier to see how they move/where they position.

Rossi came out of pockets. A lot of cats did. I used to race that shit. The funny thing is that it's actually easier to ride the bigger stuff, because it reacts so much slower (shorter bike, shorter "lever", it goes over center faster). Shit on high HP pockets is lightning fast. Big bike seems like a fucking motorhome after some track time on the tiny shit.

Your weight has more direct effect on the small shit too, so it really teaches you where to put it.

They're great for teaching throttle control and weight positioning.

Imagine kissing the mirror, if they were still mounted.

Looks like you are doing something right to be riding in A group.
I noticed that everyone has their own form, what works for one may not work for another. That said, I think everyone should try the recommended "form" and let it morph as you get more comfortable.

Like someone mentioned, get your head out from behind the windscreen.
Try to get your upper body off a bit more, so basically the same as above....if your head goes, your body will follow.
Outside armpit on the gas cap. Drop your inside elbow.
Don't worry about looking like a frog. haha I think I look pretty funny too from side or rear shots.
Concentrate and consciously try to change your position if you are searching for your perfect "form". Sometimes to do this, you need to slow it down. It's hard to concentrate on something new when you are out there trying to go "fast".

I seriously believe the "perfect" form is different for everyone.
So the above are just things that worked for me. Then again, I'm far from fast.

Gotta give Kyle credit. He may be an ass, but he's humble enough to ask advice. Especially given that prob 90% on this board couldn't keep up. :lol:

where's the pic from Nashville? not that I know anything about form... but the one I saw I thought you looked alot better there... maybe posting that would help illistrate the diffrence.

were you just not comfortable because it was a new track or what?

all that advise giving is bullshit....what you need is paint...that'll make you faster :dthumb:

Here, before you guys all think I'm a nut for talking about minibikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx8vB...eature=related

Some of these guys really hang off hard as shit.

They go for it, 'cuz there's less fear of death...lol.

you forgot GAY :lol:

Gee, that makes Rossi gay.

:shrug:

Remove head from ass.

Just like shifters are the stepping on point for F1, pocket is the European training ground for GP, and why they generate so many champs, chump.

Chuckle if you must. Shit teaches you like a motherfucker how to fucking ride. Think they're gay? Try riding an open class racer just once...then get back to me.

If you can get the throttle half open without getting tossed like a fucking garden salad, I'll buy you a beer.

Rossi was 2 years old when on a pocket bike.. not 30 :lol:

And stickers!!

So that must mean that 90% of the people on this site can't ride for shiet, or Kyle is one fast mofo.

Nah, a lot of cats (Rossi included) still ride pocket occasionally just to stay sharp. It requires reaction times about 5x quicker than that of a big bike. When you get back on the big bike, it's almost like you can do no wrong, the bike seems so big and lethargic...it almost telegraphs its balance and motions by comparison. Feels like slo-mo. It's actually cool as shit, and can boost your confidence and control on the big bike like a motherfucker.

Don't laugh before you try it, is all I'm sayin'.

I'm not talking about $150 China toys, I'm talking about all handcrafted Italian billet handmade racing parts, extreme 2-stroke pipe tuning, and thus tiny 2-strokes with positively evil powerbands. The power-to-weight is just sick.

Most of the real open class shit starts about about $3500, and is almost all handmade.

It's all real racing shit, just very small, and the "small" is what teaches faster reactions. The example I always use: You can balance a broom on your hand, right? How about a pencil? The smaller lever telegraphs its direction faster, and makes you need to react faster...in this case, too fast to counter-balance. Small bike makes similarly insane demands on your balance. It's a huge challenge, actually, and teaches you to be so goddamn subtle with your weight, it's fucking silly.

You can laugh, but that shit taught me a lot.

probably a mixture of both :lol:

but who cares really... none of us are racing... well ok some of them are... but for us who aren't racing... who cares how fast you go as long as you have fun...

from what I've heard though Kyle's not slow

one fast mofo'

One fast mofo. Simple math. 449 members...I would venture to say that there are not 45 faster

BTW, to make use of the big dude/small bike effect of that video in order to better interpret what I was trying to illustrate:

Draw a mental line through the tops of rider's helmets, and back tires on the minimotos as you watch them through the S turn. Because of the big dude/small bike effect, it's really easy to read rider position.

Now, track your little mental stick figurers through the S turn.

See how it's a nice smooth arc?

You gotta be humble, even Rossi is humble.

Thanks guys for tootin' my horn though, it is appreciated to know that others notice that you are 'good' at your hobby.

I swear Kyle you're Bi Polar... :lol: most of your post are sturr'n the pot... the others are... well... like these... :lol:

kyles an okay guy. misunderstood, but okay.

I have no issue with him at all... but he does stirr the pot here most of the time.

I don't cut anyone slack.

It's not stirring the pot, it's just saying what is on my mind.

My apologies.

Omelette anyone?

lol no apologies needed... I was just make'n a comment wasn't attack'n ya.

personally I'd like to see ya post more... especially in the track sub form... you certainly know a hell of alot more thank I do.

Sorry bro, I haven't had much time. Been pretty busy with work and house-work.

We really just need to ride together.

Well I'll be at the TWFix Trackday hell or high water. but I'll probably make it up to your neck of the woods prior to that anyhow... may even buy the bike up around there.

Skip the mini bikes, we had a nice polini and blata try and race with our suped up fiddies and they were just in the way. Get yourself a mini motard if you want fun.

On the original topic:

This is what works for me. It might not for you. There are many different "right" styles and you'll have to find one that works best for you.

Head vertical and up. Look through the corner as far as you comfortably can. This will make the corner seem slower and proper head position, and looking where I wanted to be improved my riding 100%.

Get both cheeks off the seat. Carry your weight on the balls of your feet and use the inside of the high leg to locate yourself on the bike like an archer uses the corner of his eye to shoot consistently. DoNOT use it to carry any significant amount of weight. By doing this you'll be carrying your weight low on the bike and allowing it to move independently from you. This takes endurance and a lot of leg strength, but you'll be amazed at how much the bike will correct for bumps and pavement imperfections all by itself, if your body weight isn't restricting movement.

This kid has just about the best natural body position I've seen, close up.

http://www.morallyambiguous.net/mult...0-P8303812.jpg

Coming off the corner and moving into tuck on the front straight.

http://www.morallyambiguous.net/mult...0-P9286415.jpg

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I will work on this next time I'm on the track... ( a couple months maybe...)

Yeah, it's funny...here in the US, it looks like Mini Motard may take hold better.

Pocketbike is literally the class under 125 Moto GP (televised) in Europe, however. I just think the pockets are cool because of the size.

You can actually put two in the back of a Corvette, and go racing.

:rockwoot:

Agreed.

You want to learn body english?

Wrestle a 14hp fiddy on 10" slicks over a double and through a dirt section without face planting.

The pocket bikes are fun too but mini motard has definitely taken hold state side.

I want a mini motard.

I love mine.

The mini motard is cheaper I agree completly that the small bike is tje best way to learn body posistion.

Yep. :dthumb:

http://www.minimoto.it/brds/forla.jpg

That's the current pocket champ (Italy)

Here's the bike:

http://www.minimoto.it/cap/bike/bk0....xpd/expo_i.txt

Gay? No way, Jose.

Note damper, wavy rotors...

Anytime you post up pictures of yourself riding, someone will have something to say. Usually it's "get your head/torso down".

Now, I know that is true, and it would help you... but everyone has their own comfort zone. The more you push it the more you need to try to go for that "ideal" body position. However I personally find that position can be uncomfortable and tiring. I try to often reserve my really extreme hangoff and getting my head down by the clipon for the laps when I'm really trying to go fast...

Overall, you look pretty good. Just try to slide your chest over on the tank a bit and you'll be golden. As you get faster and faster it will be more important to get your torso and head way down there, and it takes some strength and endurance to do it for long periods of time. This offseason I am going to be working on my physical condition.

I don't want to get too sucked into this, but everyone has their own optimum riding position. Just for reference, here's pics of Hodgson and DiSalvo at the last LVMS track day, with Mark Bodecker (on the Jordan Suzuki) and myself thrown in for comparison.

More pics here:
http://orguss.smugmug.com/gallery/6565833_Yip5U

I wonder what the relative speeds are?

Good pics zort. IMO the best body position is the one that allows you to get off the bike as much as possible to decrease lean angle and/or increase cornerspeed while at the same time allowing you personally to remain comfortable, loose, and in tune with what the bike is doing...

That being said the faster you get, the more like Jason's photo you need to look like. Obviously he's fucking fast... and look at his body positioning.

At this point mine is most like Zort's and Mark's.

Here is a video capture of me. This is actually a left hand turn so I mirrored the image just to follow the norm of the four pictures Kurt posted...:

edit: rotated it to be flat:

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...4/5ae92c8a.jpg

Hodgson needs to get his head down... he'll never be fast looking like that!



:lol:

I have the same problem as you AA. Ass off and body inline, not twisted.

And are those E-racings skins you have on your bike?

As far as the plastics, I dunno what brand they are, they came with the bike. I bought some fiberglass and repaired them a little.

I think being comfortable in your position, and having one less thing on your mind while going through a corner, will help you more than your body position being off 1 degree more or less either way will hurt you. Thats a reason why so many riders have so many different styles.

I agree. The more comfortable you are will show up in lap times. Everyone has their own comfort position. Body position for me changes depending on the conditions such as turn radius & camber (ie;speed), how soon the next turn will arrive and the type of bike I'm on or how much leverage is needed to make it turn. But everyone is different and what works for one may not be what works for someone else. Having raced old Vintage bikes you really get a style show thru a turn. Some guys sit in line with the bike, some sit up high (ex flat trackers) and some
hang off. You may see all three styles, in line through the same turn, at the same speed. Being comfortable is faster regardless of how fast I LOOK, or not. A stopwatch is the judge.
This pic is on a 1969 BSA Rocket 3. 985cc, 460lb's and 19" wheels, It did not like to turn.

That's a concisely put version of what I was trying to get at :cheers:
That's another good point.... there is a slow-speed tight little chicane before the main straight at my home track... I definitely don't get my form as 'good' in the little right hand part of it as elsewhere on the track... reason being it's not worth it and there isn't time/space to do so.

:dthumb:You can't tell anything from a pic.
Just ride the bike. And ONLY listen to people that are fast and are WATCHING you ride.
Not looking at pics.
Hope that helps.

I don't make it a habit of giving advice on the internet, but since you asked...here are my suggestions for improving your form. I can't promise it will make you any faster, but it made me faster.

Preface: This is always much easier to show someone when they are on their own bike on a rear stand. Body position in pic 1 and 2 are significantly different from 3 IMO. However, pic 3 helps explain some of the issues in 1 and 2.

1. Get your butt back. Not severe, but to begin with will feel severe. Really you only need to slide back a few inches in order to set the rest of your body properly. This will help with #2. This will also flatten out your torso so you're not so hunching over. And yes, one cheek should be plenty until you have corrected some other isues and develop your own personal preference after some seat time.

2. Refer to pic 1 and 3. In pic 1 your hip is open and you are sitting like a frog. Likewise, (note the direction of your pelvis) your upper body is inline with the left side of your windscreen. Whereas in pic 3 your lower body (note the direction of pelvis again) is pointing toward your outside clip-on. This is naturally causing your torso to head in that direction. After addressing point 1 open your inside hip and turn your leg out. This will help to align your upper body.

With the seating corrections, you most likely won't have the ability to stick that outside leg out like a wing anymore. However, if so, I suggest putting it up against the bike to assist you in going back to tuck smoothly. Smooth inputs...mmmm good.

3. The guys who have helped me get faster have a mantra when instructing...try dragging your helmet and not your knee. After a few laps of getting comfortable with the above changes, get your head down as low as you can. No seriously, as low as you can. So yeah, I too say get your head down. Combined with the above changes your torso will be aligned and COG will be lower.

Take my free advice for what you will. Hopefully, you'll try these changes and feel much better on you bike. I know I did. Worse case scenerio is you've wasted a few laps trying to improve your body positioning at a trackday.

http://resources.motogp.com/files/im...review_big.jpg


http://resources.motogp.com/files/im...review_big.jpg

These pictures of Stoner is a good illustrationof the alignmenment I try to acheive. Note the direction of his pelvis, Opened up hip in pic 1, and alignment of his torso in pic 2.