wow. local MSF inst. trying to pawn off zx-12r to a new rider
 

so on a local forum, some new rider WTB a bike,

local MSF inst. and owner of a training facility of course plugs his shop which is easily 1hr away passing up 2 nearer places.

but then says, i got a zx-12r for sale............

:idk: is it me or is that a lil over the top?

It's more than just a little over the top....

I think it's awesome.

I think if he has an interest in making money off of motorcycling, he should NOT be an instructor.

There's a conflict of interest there.

That's a pretty stupid statement.

Care to elaborate? EE-LAB-OR-ATE

Our msf up here, you're not allowed to recommend any dealers. You have to remain impartial.

Proof positive that it's a conflict of interest? The guy trying sell a newbie a zx12.

Don't agree? I don't give a fuck. <-- since you only seem to understand obtuseness.

I tend to agree there. That or just a little odd perhaps. That would be like saying a dealer that offers MSF instruction is not worthy of teaching because they sell larger bikes than 250's. :scratch: Like our local harley shop. Offers MSF and sells all types of harleys. Is this a conflict?

Trying to sell a bike that big to a newbie is out of line, as he should know better, but any rider knows that many newbs arent going to listen and get as big a bike as possible so they dont "outgrow" it too soon. :dthumb:

I don't think it's a conflict of interest... I think it's a case of douchebaggery.

I think MSF instructors should be allowed to work in the industry otherwise and recommend whatever they want... as long as it conforms with the MSF organization's thoughts and practices. Therefore, this guy should be allowed to sell his bike or any other motorcycle related item for profit... hell, even work for a dealer... but when he starts pawning off a non-noob bike on a noob, then the MSF should have a problem.

it's his own personnal bike.

MSF really has no recommendations as far as what type or cc's , as in any gov't type they don't want to "get personnal"

i have been repremanded for 'speaking my mind' and having MSF inst. under my title.

He's not really a *practice what you preach* kinda guy is he?

He should be the first one to realize that a new rider has no business with a ZX-12R. :panic:

MSF really has no recommendations as far as what type or cc's , as in any gov't type they don't want to "get personnal"

i have been repremanded for 'speaking my mind' and having MSF inst. under my title.
__________________


he's more about business then rider safety in that sense.

he really doesn't say much on bike recomends, other then "come to my shop and let the inst. tell you what kinda bike you should get"

Thats pretty much the same thing I was thinking.

Well he wouldn't be a very good MSF instructor if he didn't. The thought process is like this...


I am an MSF instructor
I trained this guy how to ride
His skills are sharp enough now to handle a 12r



Noobs are discouraged from buying big bikes because 90% of them don't go for any kind of rider training. If you are trained in riding, you are no longer a noob.

so then as an MSF inst you're in agreement w/ the selling inst.

and feel confident a noob could handle basically any bike after BRC.

It's kinda both.

It's a conflict of interest NOT that it's his own bike, but that as an MSF instructor, you should, in short, practice what you preach. You wouldn't advise a classroom of newbies to go out and buy liter bikes, so don't turn around and try to sell him your own. He's compromising the principles he's teaching more than anything.

no, I am not an MSF instructor, that was me demonstrating his train of thought as I see it.

I think someone who completes the MSF course would be waaaaaaaaay more competent to handle a busa then the average squid that goes out and buys a busa, or even a 600 supersport bike is.

:rofl: Sarcasm much?

Seriously, when you walk out of the class, they tell you basically "Congrats... you're now qualified to go ride around in a parking lot." It's called the BRC for a reason -- it's a BEGINNER'S course. I don't know any instructor (and I know plenty of them :lol: ) who is egotistical enough to think they can prepare a newbie to ride a ZX12R in one weekend, not for lack of teaching skills, but because that's not what the curriculum is about.

I disagree...You can still take the MSF Class be the top guy in your class and show Prominent skills with being able to ride a motorcycle...But that doesnt mean your still not a noobie to riding and hat you should be recommended to go buy a busa, or ZX12.

It's seat time, and real life expereinces...riding on a course with cones to illistrate traffic and lane changes...well, It traches you bt nothing is like the realtime road conditions.

I can be trained in heart surgery...Doesnt mean I know wtf I'm doing.

:twfix:

X eleventy billion.

There's no substitute for real seat time, and lots of it.


Shit, after a year of riding almost daily, and some 10,XXX miles, I still felt like I was a newbie, just because I felt like there was still a lot I wanted to learn (and I took the MSF class before I ever hit the streets on a bike).

I dont think just b/c you complete the BRC you can handle "Any" bike...:idk:

Even if the rider could "handle" a big bike fresh out of the class, what about that ONE time they goose the throttle just a little too much, or grab just a little too much front brake -- the class teaches you the principles so that you know how to react, but real seat time is what hones these skills, and betters the odds that you'll react properly (and safely).

The guy still has waaaaaaaaay better shot than someone with 0 experience, 0 MSf, hopping on a 600.

What are the reasons we tell noobs to not buy big bikes? What are they going to do?

Like you say, loop it, grab too much throttle, or brake. Isn't that what the BRC is all about? Basic motorcycle controls, like not grabbing way too much throttle or brakes?

IMO just cuz they pass the class doesn't mean they won't do it in real life.

lets take cornering, Slow, look, press, roll.......we hammer that in class. how many crash in corners in the real world? lots MSF or not, yes peeps w/ MSF exp. are less prone to crash, but nonetheless still crash in droves.........why would ham fisting or grabbing brake be any diff.

Read my post above; yes, you learn the principles there, but let's face it - we've ALL done it (not loop it, but goosed it a bit too much or something). And yet it's our continued development as we ride more and more that hones those skills, IMO.

Sure the kid on the 12 who HAS taken the class might fare better than a total newb on a 600 who HASN'T, but that still doesn't mean the 12 is an appropriate "starter" bike. :shrug:

Why would crashing in a corner on a zx12r be an different than on an r6? The r6 would probably be carrying more corner speed....

at your level of riding YES, as a noob, they're still slow in the corners.

but your premise was that cuz they did it in class, the won't do it in the real world, NO?

He may be a douchebag trying to make a sale.

He may have confidence in his skills as an MSF coach.

He may think the person has exceptional skill levels to handle it.

But odds are, you are probably right, he's probably just a douchebag trying to line his pockets.

But if you gave me the choice of taking along a rider with me that just finished MSF on his 12r or someone else who just bought a ZX6R, I think I would take the 12r kid.

All the teenage drivers in Camaros and Mustangs passed driver's education too, but guess how many of those cars die early with front end damage.

On your next commercial flight, do you want a guy that landed a couple simulated flights the previous weekend? :lol:

Proficiency can't be learned in a weekend. Yes, he'll be better off than someone that hasn't taken the course, but that's not saying much.

The difference is the "forgiveness" of the bike. A 600 will be much more forgiving if you botch throttle control, brake control, or a host of other things than a ZX-12 would be.

Throttle will kick you off on either bike. The 12r with its extra weight and stability would actually be a better bike to fuck up the braking part on.

Great post. :dthumb:

What's that old adage....?

A 600cc bike can kill you.
A 1000cc bike WANTS to kill you.


:dthumb:

2 and 4 wheels cannot be compared. Neither can an MSF class and the joke that most places call driver's education.

:lol: Well, ya might have a point there...

I don't think the rider in the original post has even taken the MSF class yet. However even if he has, when a rider completes the MSF class, doesn't mean they are no longer a "new rider". Everyone progresses at a different level. The only way someone is no longer a "new rider" is experience and seat time.

Everyone's learning curve is different. Even if I had a star student who aced everything, come through the class. I would never think of suggesting they start on a literbike or hyperbike.

Sure they may be able to ride from point a to point b just fine. But throw in traffic, stress, the first time they go into a corner too hot, heat, cold, and the fact they are still new riders into the equation and they are asking for trouble.

Just a tidbit of info. Do you know how many motor skills it takes to correctly drive a car? Starting, stopping, shifting gears, changing lanes, parking, and so on? Roughly about 48 motor skills.

Do you know how many motor skills it takes to correctly ride a motorcycle? Starting, stopping, changing lanes, shifting gears, and so on? Closer to 240 motor skills. Big difference there.

Sure not every rider is the same. Maturity level goes along way towards the riding/learning curve. This goes back to the age old debate about starter bikes. We all know people who have started on liter bikes or bigger. Some of those "new riders" become great riders. Others make the headlines in the news.

However ask most of those people who started on bigger bikes if they wish they had started on something smaller and the majority will say yes. If you ask the guys who started on smaller bikes if they wish they had started on a bigger bike and the majority will say no.

The bottom line is no MSF coach should encourage any new rider to start out on a 12R, Busa, GSXR1000, or any liter/hyper bike.

What does coming into a corner too hot have anything to do with whether you are on a 600 or 100?

Worth repeating. :dthumb:

Or any 600 supersport

That is what I thought.

I'm glad I sold my 600. I didn't realize the brakes were so poor until I read this thread.

Or any motorcycle.


Ed,

Would you sell your 800 to a newb? :scratch:

due to political pressures and such, i bet your state coordinators would advise you not to go that route, but a more diplomatic open answer vs NO THOSE bikes are not suitable.

"Would you sell your 800 to a newb?" prolly not, but $ talks, w/ 60+K she ain't worth much. kekeke

I don't disagree with that either. :dthumb:

Is this one of those Trip-like arguments where you say stupid shit to stand ground on something you don't believe in just for the sake of arguing?

If you screw up braking on a 12r, you now have MORE weight out of control, be it too hot into a turn or headed toward the pavement because you hit the binders in a turn. And the 12r throttle response and torque is far different than a 600.

A GSXR1000 weighs maybe 15lbs more than a SV650... I went through a corner at least twice as fast as a newer rider on a SV a couple of weeks ago,I made it he didn't,why? Of course experience was at work but it has always been my contention that the inferior suspension and brakes on "starter" bikes can also be to blame....

As far as the OP goes...whether I'm selling you a bike or a gun,it is not my responsibility to make sure you know how to handle it.

I took the MSF course and the next day ran the Isle of Man TT. I won the fucker on a Ninja250 in the 1000cc class. That guy was my teacher.

I've owned a 12r...actually the bike if very easy to ride. I would say go for it!!

Gixxer and SV are in two different classes of sport bike, but I'd be willing to be had you been on the SV, you would've made it. I doubt either of you are riding near the limits of either bike.

playing devil's advocate a bit here but the 12r is a hefty beast at around 550 wet and makes around 160 hp. a 600rr comes in at about 430 and 106 and for fairness sake my 954 is approximately 430 and 150. given a 200lb rider and some quick math we get a weight to power ratio for the 12 of 4.7, the 600 gets a 6.0 and the 954 rocks the clocks at a 4.2. the blade isint exactly the most hardcore bike in the litre class either. its theoretically possible if the guy isint a fuck head

Oh of course not....I'm sure that you'll agree that the GSXR,any GSXR has far better brakes and suspension than any "starter bike",the Sv included.

thus the mad rush to throw gsxr parts on peoples sv's

That reminds me that I have forks and a shock to sell one of these days....

My only point such as it is,is that almost all crashes I've ever seen on the street resulted from injudicious use of the brakes and/or coming into a corner to hot for the rider (not necessarily the bike). In over 25 years of riding,I've only high sided once on the street...

The problem is you don't have to be able to ride, or know anything about riding for that matter, to be an MSF instructor. The MSF is a joke, and it should not be assumed that just because someone is playing the role of teacher that they have any business being there. My MSF instructors were some of the worst riders I've seen to this day.

you must not hang out w/ many riders, or all your friends like you are riding gods........:bowtome:


maybe not

how many times you crashed ?, thread

I hate to inform you, but you are very, very mistaken. Part of the qualifications to be a MSF rider coach is that you must be an active motorcycle rider and currently own a motorcycle. "Most" schools will want you to have several years of riding under your belt and those years consisting of alot of miles. Not just riding back and forth to bike night or being a weekend warrior.

Not to mention to be a rider coach, you must have completed the BRC MSF class and then have 60 to 120 hours of "range aiding". Basically being a cone kicker and learning how to set up the range, what goes where and observing the rider coaches. Seeing how they interact with all the students what they say and what they do. Seeing how things are done, what kind of questions they ask and how they deal with the different situations.

Once the range aiding is done there is an 8 day program to get certified to become a rider coach. During that 8 day program the rider coach candidates are observed and watched from every angle possible. The rider coach candidate has to basically do the whole BRC class again and complete the riding evaluation with a much better score then the normal student.

So there is alot of time and training that goes into becoming a MSF rider coach. Training will vary by state, but those are the basic guidelines. There is also the ongoing training and state updates that rider coaches are required to attend.

I hate to say it, but it sounds like you just chose a bad school to attend. Did you do any research about the school first? Maybe you went to class with the "I know it all and they can't teach me anything" attitude. I don't know you, so I can't say either way. But we have those kind of students come through all the time. If you have that attitude, you are already in shut down mode and will never learn anything.

I would highly reccomend taking the class again and see if you have a different experience. It can't hurt. It can only help you.

If your instructors were truly that bad, you should have filed a complaint with the MSF or the school itself. Did you contact the owner of the school to share your experiences?

:dvrofl: :dvrofl: :dvrofl:

Pretty much. PoD likes to sprak discussion and controversy (nothing wrong with it, but it helps when you know that's his M.O. ).

Well, there's nothing wrong with it except it's painfully stupid, but at least I know that's his MO now. :lol:

Maybe my lack of riding ability stems from my poor MSF instruction.

"Buy a bike and ride it" is hardly what I would call a qualification. Every squid in the world bought a bike and rode it.

So we've got "buy a bike", "ride it", and now "show up".

"Buy a bike", "ride it", "show up", and finally "Come to class for a week". I guess the reason for the inadequacy is no secret. We desperately need real rider training in this country just like we need real driver training. The standards for everything are just so low it's a joke. We will continue to have streets full of squids and oblivious soccer moms until licensing becomes less about collecting money and more about properly educating.

I had the displeasure of riding later on with the group of instructors that taught my MSF, and even then I could see they were everything that embodies the stereotypical squid. They had absolutely no clue what to do on a motorcycle in any way, shape, or form. The "training" was just as bad.

As far as the material itself, there are quite a few points that I disagree with. I don't believe in the method of teaching something incorrectly to simplify it for a beginner, only to have to relearn it the correct way at a more advanced stage. A good example would be a statement to the effect of "never brake while turning" made in my MSF class. I realize this is aimed at street riding, and you'll rarely have to do this on the street, but wouldn't it be nice to at least know what trail braking is so when I go into a corner too hot one day I'll be equipped to handle it? Maybe this particular issue wasn't an MSF problem but an instructor problem, I don't know, but there were several things looking back that were very poorly taught in my class.

I would like to see civilians have to pass the IPTM course to get a license. That would weed out most of the people on the street right now, but at least the ones that are left would be able to handle a bike to some degree of competency. The MSF is a good idea that is poorly executed.

It's a basic coursed designed for non riders to get started. If you expected to be a racer when you were done, you should have taken a race school. They do have those out there.

Yes it is, and it does a poor job of that in my opinion.

Who's talking about racing?

well i guess the ol addage


you can't please all the people all the time


would be perfect.

Excuse me if I don't jump on your bandwagon there line-boy, I think for myself.

You really missed the point of my post, didn't ya, Lightning? I said arguing a viewpoint you don't believe in for the sake of arguing is stupid. What part of that has anything to do with a bandwagon?

If your view is that a 12R is truly a better starter bike than a 600RR, then I don't want you anywhere near my bandwagon anyway. You guys have your own, shorter version.

Yes, I tend to look for reasons as to why people do things, as opposed to the + 1 sheeple. Don't worry, I won't be anywhere near your pen.

This sounds familiar... it wasn't in the CraigsList MOFO was it?

:lol: Yeah, to hell with common sense and past lessons learned, that'll prove your individuality! If not, there's always cutting.

hahahahahaha "lightning" :rofl:

LOL typical sheeple. Can't win? Better start tossing out insults and names then.

Typical what "throwing out insults and names"?

PoD -- just food for thought here: just because the majority agrees on something (or in this case, disagrees with YOU) doesn't mean we're sheeple... in many cases (not all... :lol: ), when the majority agrees, it means they're RIGHT.

I'm just sayin.... :shrug:

:dvrofl:

Haha, I can't keep it up, I don't even know what point we are arguing anymore.

Of course the guy is a douchebag that is just trying to make a sale.


I stand by two things I said in this thread though.

If he did spend a weekend or a week's course with this kid, as his MSF instructor, I would take his opinion of what kind of bike he would be ok on over a bunch of strangers debating it on a forum.

Also, I think in a lot of cases, a 12r IS probably more forgiving than a more modern 600, which is a lot lighter, a lot more high strung, with a shorter wheelbase, as well as a more aggressive rake and trail, brakes that bite a lot more, etc etc.

I completely agree with POD... someone with SOME training on a bigger bike is a safer rider IMO than someone with 0 training on a smaller bike.

or at least if I were a betting man... that's where I'd put my money.

I do believe the MSF instructor is a hypocrite.

and just my :2cents: but argue'n a point that you don't believe in isn't stupid... it shows KNOWLEDGE about the subject. easy to argue from YOUR viewpoint... quite another to defend one you don't fully support. :idk:

I just don't see how he's a hypocrite...as has been stated,the MSF does not have/teach any guidelines on what bike someone should start on. Maybe this guy is part of the minority that believes that whether or not a noob crashes is more dependent on the rider than on the bike. Just being an instructor doesn't automatically guarantee that he follows the "everyone must start on a 250" rule. I took MSF on a V-Max and no one questioned it.....:idk:

true... but IMO, the MSF stance is to start small... hence why the beginners course is on 250's... and as far as I know, you're not allowed to take the BRC on anything bigger.

they may not outright SAY "MSF says START SMALL" but they practice it.:2cents:

My opinion is that Sports bikes are a danger because they will take a new rider far past their ability before the rider realizes it. And when you're over your head you better know what to do without thinking, that's what time on a bike gets you.

I have an analogy, imagine taking a child to the beach, and maybe they can sort of swim. Say you have 2 choices for a beach, one where the water slowly gets deeper, and is maybe 5' deep 100'+ from shore, or one where it's a shallow 2-3' out about 30' then drops off to 100' deep.

This is your child, which beach would you go to?

Tigger just said he took the MSF on a V-Max so I guess they don't always adhere to the 250 or else motto.

If you think they use 250's to practice what they don't necessarily preach, you are high.

The bikes they use need to be CHEAP to purchase, upkeep and replace. They also need to be usable by a broad range of riders sizes, able to withstand a drop, able to be picked up from a drop. That is why they use 250's.

We can't take the msf on personal bikes. We can take the advanced riders course, which is msf on you own bike, with your own bike...

That is how it is in FL too.

My post was more to the point of why 250's are supplied for the course.

Because it is cheaper to buy and maintain 10 $2500 Rebels than 10 $12,000 Sportsters, not because 250cc is the engine displacement promoted by the MSF.

Here, the BRC you ride theirs, the advanced, you bring your own.

Thanks.

Informative and helpful.

Gold star.

I'd train the kid to be a better swimmer before I'd take it to any beach. Besides,how tall is the kid? If he's only a couple of feet tall,it doesn't really matter because he can drown in either case.

Look,I hear what YOU are saying,I'm merely pointing out that not everyone believes as you do...some people throw babies in the pool at the Y to teach them to swim. Some people are ok that start on bigger bikes and some people,like my buddy,total SV650s doing 50 in a 35 mph curve....I've said it before,most single vehicle bike accidents I've seen, that weren't stunt, debris, animal, etc, related were at under 80 mph and involved either too much corner speed,lack of brake control or a combination of the two.

was it the BRC or the ERC?

in AK they wouldn't let you sign up of an ERC with out a BRC card. and they wouldn't let you take the BRC on anything other than what they provided... 250's and 125's :idk:

Oregon was the same when my bro went through it.

figured it'd be part of the MSF "laws"

I think there's a bit more to it than $... after all you don't want a noob grabbing a fist full of throttle and looping the bike back on themselves.

they want something that's light, can take a fall, and is forgiving.

guarantee they'd pick 250's over any bike if they're all priced the same.

Meh, if they wanted something forgiving, they'd use ZX-12R's. :lol:

They're heavy, so they're more stable, and they have better brakes.

Yea guys,it was over 20 years ago and I took the MSF course because it was mandated by the military at the time. My buddy took it on a ZX-10 which was his 1st bike. Another guy took it on a Goldwing,etc. It may be that they won't let you learn to ride on your own bike now but it was "run what you brung" back in the day. It sometimes gets old having to explain yourself all the time...

:lol: I got ya tig... just wondered... and your proof that you don't have to take it on a 250 to be safe... but just thought it was their "rule"

IMO, most places use 250s cuz they're cheap to maintain and crash well. most are donated by dealers so schools take what they can get.

in TX, you can ride your own bike in the basic class. as long as it passes a safety inspection and you have ins. on it. and you sign a waiver.

do i recommend it, NO.

In most cases, yes. But not when the other viewpoint is ignorance, or goes against common sense, for the sake of creating an argument. My viewpoint is skydiving without a parachute is dangerous. Do you want to show off your "KNOWLEDGE" and defend the other view? :lol:

Why don't you break out another analogy that makes no fuckin sense, douchebag.

Couldn't find another thread to be a dickhead in today, so you figured you'd come back to this one?

I've seen your posts around here, I know your deal.

That analogy makes perfect sense. :idk:

And it wasn't me that dug this thread back up. Seems we both know each other's MO now.

Wasn't it you that said "sheeple" only throw out names and insults when they're losing? Sorry if my post hurt your wittle feewings. You wanna hug it out?

I think I hear a call for Captain Dickhead coming out of another thread. You better get there quick and save the day. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the heads-up! I can't wait until a get a call-light like Batman. Until then, I'll just have to rely on mere mortals.

Jesus... this turned into a shit show in 2 seconds flat, huh?

I kind of agree with the general opinion I'm seeing here.... As a soon to be MSF instructor myself, I'm pretty surprised that this guy would allegidly try & sell someone FRESH outta the BRC a 12R... Obviously there's no rules/laws/regulations saying you can't do that, but it sounds pretty irresponsible if you ask me. If anything else, it's certainly bad press for the MSF, that's for sure.

In response to TheAwesome's "you don't have to be able to ride, or know anything about riding for that matter, to be an MSF instructor" comment..... Sure, not all MSF instructors are the best riders... But there's nothing wrong with that. You need to realize that good riders don't always make good instructors... and bad riders don't always make bad instructors. It's not just about skill, it's about knowledge and teaching ability (and patience for people like those found on internet forums :P)


IMO, the BRC does an adequate job of teaching people the basics and giving them a solid foundation upon which they can CONTINUE to build upon. By no means does it teach EVERYTHING you need to know & by no means is it advertised in that manner. It gives you the skills to hopefully survive long enough to get to the next point and continue your rider education. It's CERTAINLY better than no training at all.

Well this begs the question, when are you "trained" in riding?

ahh yes... those are on the same level. last time I checked I didn't claim to have any knowledge of skydiving

Some people here just need to unwad their fucking panties. I even threw in the in-your-face :lol: sarcasm indicator on that post.

Sarcasm aside, what is so hard to understand about this?

1. my panties aren't in a wad... it's the internet, shit doesn't bother me.

2. this is... er.. was a discussion not an argument.

3. i was talking about having a discussion or debate defending an viewpoint that you don't agree with. Having an argument defending anything is fuck'n retarded when it involves the internet. as everyone's got multiple P.H.D.'s in what ever they're talking about... and have got a close personal friend that actually went through it, if they didn't themselves.

4. Here we (TRY) to have discussions... and for the most part they work... as most of us are adults.... but we all slip up sometimes... but usually work it out and continue with the conversation... rather than have it turn into a flame war and pissing contest...

I agreed with this in my original reply. "In most cases, yes". But arguing a viewpoint tha's ignorant (skydiving without a parachute or that at ZX-12R is a better starter bike than a 600RR) to create an argument is different. It doesn't "show knowledge" about anything.

That's all I said. :idk:

that's not what he was saying... or at least what I was talking about...

he was saying that a 0 experienc rider on a 600 ss would be more dangerous than a MSF trained person on a 12R...

I don't know if he agrees with it or not... I can see valid points from both sides...

These are the comments I was referring to. Seemed to me he just kept upping the ante to keep an argument going. For argument's sake.


Regardless of Little Pickle's views, you and I were clearly not on the same page. I agree arguing both sides of a view is beneficial, it's one of the first challenges you are given in a debate class, but I don't agree there's a benefit to making stupid arguments because "this is the internet!". :)

but again... what you quoted has merit... the fact is; 600's can carry more corner speed than a 1200; straight line the 12r is gonna be more planted than a 600 due to weight... and the brakes aren't gonna be as touchy; and the 12 of yesteryear isn't as, as he put it... high strung, tuned for every last bit of hp or torque.

I don't know if i'd say that the 12r is better... but I don't believe it's as black and white as you think.



and as I said before... until lately... we had quite a few discussions on this forum about very touchy subjects... but as most of us are adults and know each other we were able to have civil discussions. in those settings playing devils advocate is just fine... actually look at the "Adspace for No God" thread... it's what I'd been doing in 90% of my posts... not to just piss in anyone's Wheaties... but to get the discussion passed the 'you're wrong, I'm right' stage.

This thread makes me understand marko. Good god.