Brake line washers: safe to reuse?

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Gas Man

Do you mean the copper washers?

Can re-use, as long as it looks good. You can buy new ones at the auto store.

You can also retemper them by hitting them with a torch. Can't remember why but it does something to them.



For banjo bolts in brake systems they aren't just regular washers. They are copper. Regular washer would leak like a siv.

Now that's the definitive answer gentlemen! Oh and I've reused them and I'm on the 4th oil change with my drain plug washer as well.

Originally Posted by JoshuaTree

Copper brake line 'banjo bolt' washers(*) - NO

Metal drain/fill plug washers(*) - NO

(*) The only permissible exception to this is when you're on the road, have an "issue" (e.g. accident) and need to effect emergency repairs to get to a repair facility or home.

Any questions?

I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....

[zed]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....

I've got a stack of rear tires about 6 foot tall from people like that. most of them still have nipples on them.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by zed

I've got a stack of rear tires about 6 foot tall from people like that. most of them still have nipples on them.

Yea I have a buddy like that, he also works at a dealership. I'll never get that. People think that you can't patch a motorcycle tire.

[zed]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Yea I have a buddy like that, he also works at a dealership. I'll never get that. People think that you can't patch a motorcycle tire.

as far as I know, it's hard to find a shop that will patch a SB tire. hell, some won't even patch a cruiser tire that has a tube.

it used to be "common" knowledge that you don't plug a SB tire because of the speeds they can hit, cornering forces.

I don't know how long those plug patches have been out but that's what I use and won't use anything else given the chance. if stuck out somewhere that I couldn't get one installed I'd use a rope plug but I'd rather have the plug patch.

I've been well over 100mph on both plug patch and a cord patch with no problems.

[JoshuaTree]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

... I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....

No, as a matter of fact, I don't.

I am a guy who has rebuilt three motorcycles, one down to splitting the cases and installing new main and con-rod bearings. I do hold several certifications from BMW Motorrad (worked at a shop for a while, a while ago), and have worked on my own vehicles since I was able to drive (legally).

In the matter of brake line crush washers - ask yourself a simple question: Is it worth injury or death (to say nothing of resulting damage to your bike) to have brake system failure for the want and use of $0.10-0.65 parts? You've just spent $50-250 on new brake lines, bought new race-spec brake fluid (or just generic DOT whatever), can you really say that you couldn't find the money for new sealing washers for the banjo bolt fittings? Really?

Motorcycle shops don't patch tires anymore due to liability issues, not real technical function issues. Some techs just hate the job in general anyways.

Relating to oil drain/fill plugs' sealing rings/washers, if you don't mind an occasional leak / total oil loss from your engines (i.e. when the sealing ring fails and the drain plug vibrates out as a result), and really want to save that $0.25-1.00 per oil change, go right ahead.

I'd bet that there isn't a single motorcyclist that can't manage to allocate their discretionary spending such that they can always afford new sealing rings/washers for their maintenance.

Then again, WTF do I know about maintenance anyways...

[was92v]

Like many things we do or don't do, it is up to the person doing the work, especially on his or her own bike to make the decision. If you have new washers there and feel the need to replace them, then by all means do it. Would I let not having new ones in my garage on Friday night keep me from finishing a job and going riding or racing for the weekend? Put everything on hold until I can get to a bike shop and order the correct washers, nope, but again that is just me. Our own experiences usually dictate how we react to these things and it is neither right or wrong. The first shop manager that I worked for summed it up nicely. He said, during a conversation similar to this, "There are always at least 4 ways to do something, your way, my way, the right way and the wrong way". The phrase is much more accurate than it seems.

Our own experience determines how we feel about this type of question or in the absence of that, what we have read, or been told by someone whos opinion we respect.
Or we have a situation arise that forces us to change our opinion.

As far a experience, I have mine and you have yours. I have ridden for 41 years and messed up some stuff.
I am (was) a certified MC mechanic with a degree from AMI
which is now Wyotech in Daytona. Worked as a mechanic in a Kawasaki shop and for a while in a Yamaha shop. Did a short stint as a shop manager for a Kaw shop, built 8 or 10 bikes from the bare frame up, built, maintained and rode drag bikes for 3 years, built, tuned,maintained and rode roadrace bikes for 5 years and have always done all my own maintenance on all of my street bikes and I reuse them.
In the past 41 years, I have had exactly zero failures of copper sealing washers, so my experience says to me, if it looks good, it is. Yours may say something else. Go with what you know until you need to change. Very few things in this world are really YES-NO or BLACK-WHITE. When you think about it carefully, almost everything is MAYBE-GRAY.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by was92v

Like many things we do or don't do, it is up to the person doing the work, especially on his or her own bike to make the decision. If you have new washers there and feel the need to replace them, then by all means do it. Would I let not having new ones in my garage on Friday night keep me from finishing a job and going riding or racing for the weekend? Put everything on hold until I can get to a bike shop and order the correct washers, nope, but again that is just me. Our own experiences usually dictate how we react to these things and it is neither right or wrong. The first shop manager that I worked for summed it up nicely. He said, during a conversation similar to this, "There are always at least 4 ways to do something, your way, my way, the right way and the wrong way". The phrase is much more accurate than it seems.

Our own experience determines how we feel about this type of question or in the absence of that, what we have read, or been told by someone whos opinion we respect.
Or we have a situation arise that forces us to change our opinion.

As far a experience, I have mine and you have yours. I have ridden for 41 years and messed up some stuff.
I am (was) a certified MC mechanic with a degree from AMI
which is now Wyotech in Daytona. Worked as a mechanic in a Kawasaki shop and for a while in a Yamaha shop. Did a short stint as a shop manager for a Kaw shop, built 8 or 10 bikes from the bare frame up, built, maintained and rode drag bikes for 3 years, built, tuned,maintained and rode roadrace bikes for 5 years and have always done all my own maintenance on all of my street bikes and I reuse them.
In the past 41 years, I have had exactly zero failures of copper sealing washers, so my experience says to me, if it looks good, it is. Yours may say something else. Go with what you know until you need to change. Very few things in this world are really YES-NO or BLACK-WHITE. When you think about it carefully, almost everything is MAYBE-GRAY.

I agree, I've always done my own maintenance work (over 30 years of riding-street, dirt and a little track) and I have never had a catastrophic failure such as JT seems to fear. I don't understand what they think will happen? I mean this "the drain plug will vibrate out" nonsense is ridiculous IMHO. The worst that can happen is a leak. Now I do swap out parts when I do maintenance but I'm with you, if I don't have it I'm still going riding.

I also don't understand the "my way is the only right way attitude" and if you don't do things the way I do them, you are an idiot. Btw I don't have as lofty of experiences as you guys but I did work the pit in an oil change location for a number of years and we didn't replace the drain plug washers unless they were bad. None of the o.c. places do to my knowledge. We never had a failure of the type that he described. I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that a motorcycle isn't really all that different from any other vehicle. In fact, in a lot of ways motorcycles have much less stress put on their components due to their lack of weight, etc.

[was92v]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

.... I mean this "the drain plug will vibrate out" nonsense is ridiculous IMHO...

Actually, there are a couple of areas that bikes are different. Mostly vibration, which can cause parts to vibrate out. However if the parts are installed correctly, that is threads are clean and good and the bolts are at the correct tension they will stay in place under normal circumstances. When circumstances are not normal, other measures need to be taken, such as safety wire seen on airplanes and race vehicles or a chemical thread lock if it is something that doesn't get routinely unscrewed. In the case of 2-stroke race bikes, maybe both. I almost always use a torque wrench on oil drain plugs and oil filters, as well as everything else that my life depends on.
Too little and they will vibrate loose, too much and they can crack due to vibration, or destroy the threads.
If the banjo bolt is good (I have had some of them over the years that were bad...) and properly torqued the worse that that will happen, even if the washer is hard as a rock, is a slight weeping wetness around the seal, not a sudden catastrophic failure. And even then the place to look for the problem is the banjo bolt usually. If the banjo was installed with a torque wrench you would see a "mushy" reading, or an inability to pull it to the correct number even though the threads look good. In that case look for a cracked banjo bolt. They can cause a sudden loss of pressure. Lucky that most of the time you feel it when tightening them, or the bastards just break, which is good. Then you know you have to replace it with no ambiguity.

[Amber Lamps]

Oh I didn't say there was "no difference", just that the basic principles are the same. besides I've ridden in some pretty "shaky" cars, if they don't lose bolts, nothing will. Again to each his own, I'm not trying to talk people into not replacing their washers, you know?

[JoshuaTree]

OK, in no particular order:

RE: Washers, et. al. - having SEEN and/or been a part of having several brake sealing washers "leak" (i.e. fail at their job) when re-used, I've deemed it "necessary" to replace them when I do a job on a street bike. Race bikes are a different story - you assume the risk and you choose to save the money/parts. As for not having them on hand, if you could manage to plan to buy brake lines and brake fluid, how can you not manage to add in the brake line washers. It is a matter of "insurance". If you're comfortable reusing a cheap part on brake systems, go right ahead. My sole point is that when you're considering street riding, if you need brakes and don't have them, was it wise to save the $0.50 on the brake system rebuild? Yes, normally the worst that happens is weeping brake fluid from the fitting - will you notice in time to keep the brake fluid from "eating" the finish / discoloring your rims, forks, and perhaps fairing parts near the fitting?

RE: Oil Drain Washers - I won't speak for other brands, but for BMWs, you're flirting with at least a decent oil leak if not outright drain plug loss. I've delivered the "you're fucked" message to more than one customer who reused his drain plug washers doing his own oil changes and had lost the drain plug while riding. Again, I don't know of a single person who buys oil filters without oil to do an oil change. How hard is it to also buy a washer at the same time? The factory BMW oil filter kits come with the drain plug washers. And why not just keep a set (2-3) on hand in your toolbox anyways? If a new crush washer keeps your bike from leaking (or in the "rare" case, drain plug/oil loss), how much have you saved that you'll loose in time cleaning up the leak, bike, and lost oil? I'd bet that its a lot more than the cost of the sealing washer.

RE: Using a torque wrench for tightening critical items - YES! (although, in the interest of complete disclosure, and at the risk of being branded a heretic / hypocrite, I don't use them on oil filters and drain and fill plug washers, as I have enough experience to know the correct "feel" of them tightening down to the correct sealing torque. I do use them on brake line fittings, even to the point that I have crow-foot 'sockets' for use on line fittings).

RE: Mechanical Advice - In the absence of knowing the person's experience level (i.e. are they qualified by training and/or experience) to know if its OK to reuse a specific part, I'll tell them to error on the side of DON'T, as it gives the new / fledgling mechanic the job success he/she will need to keep on the path of wrenching themselves. An early job failure - especially one that results in damage to the bike - can drive a person away from every doing such operations themselves. Quite honestly, we all spend quite a bit of "discretionary" income on our hobby/passion - motorcycling. Can any of us truly say that we couldn't scrounge the cash to buy sealing rings/washers for these operations when needed?

Sometimes, I forget that people can't realize that some of my posting(s) are



P.S. And no I don't park my bike at the exact spot it has when I cross the mileage "limit" - I usually go to the nearest parking lot and call a tow truck.